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Old November 1st, 2013, 02:52 PM   #101
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That's 5 people out of trillions of people. Statistically you have to have a few. But for the most part, I would say that we have about 500 years tops of people remembering who we are. 7 - 800 if you do something 'beyond the norm'. Jesus was 2000 years ago and he's already starting to loose credibility.
IMO, Jesus loses credibility because hes the answer to everything that can not be explained. JMO.

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I'm referring to the reason life began on earth. As I understand it (and my biology major wife has tried to explain it to me) that life happened on accident. Had it not been for a few random things we would still be bubbles of single celled organisms on the surface of rocks.
Thats an interesting thought to ponder... Ill have to think about it.

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I think making the best of it could en tale for some being Immoral. My original though was it would make sense for a small group of atheists to be those people because of the thinking I've been portraying here.
Ok, are you strictly looking at the issue from an atheists standpoint?

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When you take eternity and any repercussions of your actions out of the picture (the big picture) I dont' think there would be any reason to follow morals.
Self respect?

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But who created the show? Who created the Technical director? The Scene designer? .
Or you can play the hand you've been dealt, as best you can.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 02:58 PM   #102
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Out of curiosity, what evidence would be required to make you believe that a recorded history is accurate? Not just the bible, but any recorded history.
That's a good question that I wish I had a good answer to. I tend to be a perennial skeptic, regardless of if it's something that happen 2000 years ago or 2 minutes ago. I tend not to believe what I read unless I can experience it for my self or at least verify it though multiple sources. That's why I tend to research the shit out of everything.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 03:48 PM   #103
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Hold on there Wilbur, no one is disputing that a man named Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth around 2000 years ago and had a group of followers, and made speeches about how we should love one another.

What we are debating is the deity part.
oops, got a little off track
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Old November 1st, 2013, 04:03 PM   #104
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Out of curiosity, what evidence would be required to make you believe that a recorded history is accurate? Not just the bible, but any recorded history.
For me= that it could be duplicated.

For example-

It can be argued that Rome can be burned to the ground.

It is difficult to argue that it can be burned by the will of an invisible being.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 04:33 PM   #105
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 04:51 PM   #106
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For me= that it could be duplicated.

For example-

It can be argued that Rome can be burned to the ground.

It is difficult to argue that it can be burned by the will of an invisible being.
"Could be" or "has been"?

Did Hitler kill mass numbers of jews? Has this been or does it need tyo be duplicated before you belive the recorded history?
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Old November 1st, 2013, 08:10 PM   #107
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You better hope so because that's all you got.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 08:39 PM   #108
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"Could be" or "has been"?

Did Hitler kill mass numbers of jews? Has this been or does it need tyo be duplicated before you belive the recorded history?
Recent enough history that we not only have photographic evidence, but eyewitnesses.

Besides, it does not require faith to accept that someone in a position of power can create a policy of murdering his foes.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 09:46 PM   #109
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I wonder how many people these threads reach. I'm glad that Christians are still presenting the case for salvation. If it reaches one it is worth it.

At the same time after reading these same threads over and over and over again I now have a clearer understanding of hardening of hearts. Makes me sad but it's ones own choice just as God intended.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 10:03 PM   #110
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Recent enough history that we not only have photographic evidence, but eyewitnesses.

Besides, it does not require faith to accept that someone in a position of power can create a policy of murdering his foes.
I didn't say anything about faith, this was a question of what evidence would be required to accept written historic record.

Photographs have only been around for a couple hundred years, but I suspect you believe recorded history prior to that.

If eyewitnesses accounts are sufficient without photographic evidence, hundreds of eyewitnesses attested to seeing the resurrected Christ, and many hundreds were willing to die to make these claims. Many chose death over life when asked to rescind these eyewitness testimonies. Some Christian and Non-Christian records of these events. I do assume you believe the roman empire existed even though it is not photographed?

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-...ide-the-bible/

http://www.churchhistory101.com/century1.php





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Old November 1st, 2013, 10:12 PM   #111
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I didn't say anything about faith, this was a question of what evidence would be required to accept written historic record.

Photographs have only been around for a couple hundred years, but I suspect you believe recorded history prior to that.

If eyewitnesses accounts are sufficient without photographic evidence, hundreds of eyewitnesses attested to seeing the resurrected Christ, and many hundreds were willing to die to make these claims. Many chose death over life when asked to rescind these eyewitness testimonies. Some Christian and Non-Christian records of these events. I do assume you believe the roman empire existed even though it is not photographed?

http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-...ide-the-bible/

http://www.churchhistory101.com/century1.php





.
That's a good argument.

All I can counter with at the moment is many people have 'seen' Criss Angel levitate, so is that proof that he can defy gravity?
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Old November 1st, 2013, 10:20 PM   #112
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That's a good argument.

All I can counter with at the moment is many people have 'seen' Criss Angel levitate, so is that proof that he can defy gravity?
But Christ was buried and guarded by the Romans, and then his resurrected body was eyewitnessed by hundreds, who had not only 'seen' this resurrection, but were so convinced that they died to stand behind their testimony even when Nero gave them the chance to back out. My guess, if you were to find someone who saw Criss Angel levitate, and then torture them and tell them if they rescind their statement they can leave or if they stand behind it they will die. And if you did this 2-3 times before finally killing them...you wouldn't have any eyewitnesses left for Criss Angel. But those who witnessed the resurrection were tortured and went to the grave for their testimony. You have to admit, that is pretty powerful.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 10:32 PM   #113
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But Christ was buried and guarded by the Romans, and then his resurrected body was eyewitnessed by hundreds, who had not only 'seen' this resurrection, but were so convinced that they died to stand behind their testimony even when Nero gave them the chance to back out. My guess, if you were to find someone who saw Criss Angel levitate, and then torture them and tell them if they rescind their statement they can leave or if they stand behind it they will die. And if you did this 2-3 times before finally killing them...you wouldn't have any eyewitnesses left for Criss Angel. But those who witnessed the resurrection were tortured and went to the grave for their testimony. You have to admit, that is pretty powerful.
That was also in a different time. I have my doubts that it could be repeated today.

BTW, I have no interest in convincing you (or any other Christians) that Jesus was not Divine. I simply am not a believer. I enter the discussion mainly for the opportunity to try and understand others beliefs, even if they are not my own.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 08:54 AM   #114
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That was also in a different time. I have my doubts that it could be repeated today.

BTW, I have no interest in convincing you (or any other Christians) that Jesus was not Divine. I simply am not a believer. I enter the discussion mainly for the opportunity to try and understand others beliefs, even if they are not my own.

In order to believe a recorded history is true it appears you have to first-hand experience in your lifetime. It is prophesized that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. I'll pray that this will be during your lifetime so you have an opportunity.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 09:45 AM   #115
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IMO, those are universal norms. I do realize and accept that generally society dictates morality. But that doesn't mean that what society dictates as being moral or right, actually is.
Then who/what does?

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No one individual should have the power, authority or right to adversely effect another individual, on purpose. Thats the beauty of our founding documents, they set in stone our individual rights. If we still had a Government that respected those protected rights, our basis of morality would be a bit clearer.
Ah, but you're expressing American morals as morals that should apply to everyone. Do you see what I'm getting at? There are still countries that do not look at women as equals in thier rights. Thier morals would not agree with yours. So who's right?




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Or we fight to retain what is deemed as right.
Hypothectically let's say we can't. It's some kind of force that we have to be, in this time and age, immoral to defend. What do we do then? Do we decide to do the immoral thing and by doing so condoning the action?



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That's 5 people out of trillions of people. Statistically you have to have a few. But for the most part, I would say that we have about 500 years tops of people remembering who we are. 7 - 800 if you do something 'beyond the norm'. Jesus was 2000 years ago and he's already starting to loose credibility.
IMO, Jesus loses credibility because hes the answer to everything that can not be explained. JMO.
I don't think he's the answer to everything that can't be explained at all. I think he may have given answers to things that cannot be explained but not the epitome of 'the asnwer'.


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I'm referring to the reason life began on earth. As I understand it (and my biology major wife has tried to explain it to me) that life happened on accident. Had it not been for a few random things we would still be bubbles of single celled organisms on the surface of rocks.
Thats an interesting thought to ponder... Ill have to think about it.
I think I learned the bubble of single celled organisms thing from a DVD series about our planet. A scientist may see that as an accident but I see it as a perfect plan played out by a creator.

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I think making the best of it could en tale for some being Immoral. My original though was it would make sense for a small group of atheists to be those people because of the thinking I've been portraying here.
Ok, are you strictly looking at the issue from an atheists standpoint?
Not really, I'm looking at it from a Christian stand point in that I beleive morals are shaped and given to us by God and that those that do not believe in God, theoretically, don't have to have morals (or at least the morals given to us by God).

My stance is based in one that we're all accidents so what does it matter what we do to each other. In 500ish years, no one will remember us anyways.

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When you take eternity and any repercussions of your actions out of the picture (the big picture) I dont' think there would be any reason to follow morals.
Self respect?
Isn't Self respect a set of morals in and of it's self? Why should i care about me, or anyone else, if I'm an accident. (I don't really think that, but I'm trying to get a point across.)

The thinking I'm portraying, IMO, could be a pretty good reason for teen suicide rates rising in our country.

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But who created the show? Who created the Technical director? The Scene designer?
Or you can play the hand you've been dealt, as best you can.
That was more of a joke. .
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 11:13 AM   #116
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Then who/what does?
The moral person?

I see what you are getting at...... The problem as I see it, taking your question at face value, is its one of those questions where the only real, easy, right answer is God. Because Christians believe that we are all flawed by design, so we can not inherently be moral people without Gods hand.

However, there are millions of people around the world who do lead moral lives without Gods guidance. Whether or not those folks have to be moral is irrelevant. Its an interesting question and conversation topic, but at the end of the conversation, there will still be 2 camps.

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Ah, but you're expressing American morals as morals that should apply to everyone. Do you see what I'm getting at? There are still countries that do not look at women as equals in thier rights. Thier morals would not agree with yours. So who's right?
Well, Obviously Im right.

All seriousness aside, I don't look at my own personal morality code as "American" morals. Every American has a different standard that they conduct themselves in. My viewpoint comes from a direction of common respect and decency. I also think there are some blurred lines being crossed here between morals and religious doctrine.

Womens equal rights... Unfortunately thats not a good example. Most of the countries that do not view woman as equals are countries whos governments are run primarily by religion. Our Founders were intelligent enough to be able to practice their own faith, but not set in stone a Government that is based on the same foundation. They protected our basic, fundamental rights and left the rest to the states.

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Hypothectically let's say we can't. It's some kind of force that we have to be, in this time and age, immoral to defend. What do we do then? Do we decide to do the immoral thing and by doing so condoning the action?
Its not immoral to defend yourself.

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I don't think he's the answer to everything that can't be explained at all. I think he may have given answers to things that cannot be explained but not the epitome of 'the asnwer'.
Take the conversation we are having now.

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I think I learned the bubble of single celled organisms thing from a DVD series about our planet. A scientist may see that as an accident but I see it as a perfect plan played out by a creator.
I do not buy into the accident viewpoint. I think we are all byproducts of evolution through our environment. Both physical and mental.

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Not really, I'm looking at it from a Christian stand point in that I beleive morals are shaped and given to us by God and that those that do not believe in God, theoretically, don't have to have morals (or at least the morals given to us by God).
This goes back to "God is the answer" statement I made earlier. No one, theoretically, has to have morals. Yours are shaped around your belief in your religion. Mine are shaped around a respect for my fellow man. So perhaps I should call my religion "Mutual Respect."

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My stance is based in one that we're all accidents so what does it matter what we do to each other. In 500ish years, no one will remember us anyways.
Does it really matter if anyone will remember your name in 500 years? What matters is how you conduct yourself while alive, not how your legacy will be viewed.

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Isn't Self respect a set of morals in and of it's self?
Absolutely.

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Why should i care about me, or anyone else, if I'm an accident. (I don't really think that, but I'm trying to get a point across.)
Well, I have 2 answers...

First is, why wouldn't you? Would you really be willing to sell yourself short simply because you were put here on accident?

Second, we folks that choose to not follow a God are not lost. I believe this is the logical end to the condition you are setting up. Yes, if someone has lost all their drive and determination, they could simply give up and stop trying. Many times non believers are classified as lost by religious folk. Clearly if that's what religious folk truly believe, then I can see why non believers having the will and determination to still be good people doesn't make sense.

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The thinking I'm portraying, IMO, could be a pretty good reason for teen suicide rates rising in our country.
I think the more likely reason is a lack or parental involvement.

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That was more of a joke. .
I know. This is a serious discussion, all attempts at humor must cease and desist.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 11:54 AM   #117
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I think I learned the bubble of single celled organisms thing from a DVD series about our planet. A scientist may see that as an accident but I see it as a perfect plan played out by a creator.

Not really, I'm looking at it from a Christian stand point in that I beleive morals are shaped and given to us by God and that those that do not believe in God, theoretically, don't have to have morals (or at least the morals given to us by God).
If god created all of us, and his morals are one of those creations, shouldn't we all abide by those morals whether we believe in god or not? Being they are so ingrained in his perfect-the-second-time-around design. Or is there some kind of windows update for the human that doesn't install his morals until he has deemed you acceptable.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 12:28 PM   #118
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In order to believe a recorded history is true it appears you have to first-hand experience in your lifetime. It is prophesized that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. I'll pray that this will be during your lifetime so you have an opportunity.
I do appreciate that. I can see that you take your beliefs to heart instead of condemning those that don't share you point of view *cough westboro cough*
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 12:42 PM   #119
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BTW, I do not hate our country. I love our country, I just hate the way it's trending.
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 01:03 PM   #120
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In order to believe a recorded history is true it appears you have to first-hand experience in your lifetime. It is prophesized that Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. I'll pray that this will be during your lifetime so you have an opportunity.
Not to speak for Blue Mule, but, it's one thing to believe something that is demonstrable, i.e, I wasn't alive during the French Revolution, but I can believe that people were beheaded by the guillotine since I have seen the machines and know they are capable of doing it. However, if somebody said that somebody got up after having there head cut off and walked around, I would probably withhold belief until I had evidence, since that is pretty extraordinary claim.
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