Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 31st, 2013, 10:48 AM   #81
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,296
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
1) I have not problem believing man can turn away from morals sent from God

2) The premise of evolution is that we evolved AS A SPECIES, with a highly conserved genetic code. Although there are minor differences within the species (SNPs), as a whole the species is very similar (according to evolution). You stated that morals are a part of that evolutionary process. If so, then I would not expect to have such major polar differences in morals observed across subgroups within a species, as that would lead to major divergence and eventually separate species.
Yes. That is the very basis of macro-evolution. If a species gets permanently divided they will eventually evolve in their own direction dependent upon their environment and eventually become distinct species. As can be seen just by looking at people from different places humans we're well on their way to evolving differently. If a group stayed isolated long enough (I don't know how long that would need to be) they would eventually become a separate species. Modern means of transportation developed in the past several hundred years has largely put a stop to this.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 10:49 AM   #82
SS
Sexing your Nancy, Dale!
 
SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-12-05
Location: Arlen, TX
Posts: 10,295
iTrader: (13)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
You mean like a bible study?
No.

Instead of everyone being of the same persuasion you gather a group of people that believe all sorts of different things and everyone discusses their ideas and what led them to those conclusions.
__________________
-Jeremy



Sticks and stones may break my bones but hollow points expand on impact.
SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 11:16 AM   #83
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,859
iTrader: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Who created what created the super dense mass? And then who/what created that?

That question never ends....

I don't think you can speak for all Christians on that one. I know several who think they have it all figured out because that's what the bible says.
I know that question never ends. That's my point. You either have to have something that is eternal (God, Matter, aliens) or something from nothing.
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 11:28 AM   #84
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,296
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I know that question never ends. That's my point. You either have to have something that is eternal (God, Matter, aliens) or something from nothing.
It make me turn towards the Zen Buddhist concept of acceptance of not knowing.

Last edited by brewmenn; October 31st, 2013 at 12:52 PM.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 11:34 AM   #85
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,341
iTrader: (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Modern means of transportation developed in the past several hundred years has largely put a stop to this.
Awesome. Henry Ford and William Boeing have stopped evolution. They are very powerful men indeed.
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 11:45 AM   #86
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,296
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Awesome. Henry Ford and William Boeing have stopped evolution. They are very powerful men indeed.
Yep. Sometimes it doesn't take much.

But they didn't really "stop evolution". What they, and many others responsible for the development of transportation did was reverse the trend for humans to separate into isolated groups where they would have eventually evolved into separate species.

Evolution is largely dependent upon the environment one lives in. Modern technology has changed the environment in good and bad ways, changing how we evolve as a species.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 12:43 PM   #87
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,872
iTrader: (22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I know that question never ends. That's my point. You either have to have something that is eternal (God, Matter, aliens) or something from nothing.
So in both scenarios it is nothing, but one just has a name for it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 02:25 PM   #88
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 5,970
iTrader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS View Post
The life on Earth was seeded and engineered by an alien species. Our initial societies were guided by those same beings and then they went hands off to let us mature naturally.

^That is actually much more plausible than anything else.
Sounds like something right out of the sci fi channel.

I cannot prove there is a God just like you cannot prove we were deposited here by space aliens.
Roman historians(not Christians) have written about Jesus and who He was and what He did. We have documented who His disciples were. We also have eye witness accounts of what happened.
We have more proof of His existence than aliens from outer space.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 02:33 PM   #89
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,859
iTrader: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
So in both scenarios it is nothing, but one just has a name for it.
Not exactly, God (aliens, matter, etc) is something that has always been. Nothing is nothing. Just think about nothing for a minute. It kind of make my head hurt. No time, no space, no anything and then boom, everything. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Sounds like something right out of the sci fi channel.
It quite literally is. Depending on what movie he's referencing. I thought of Prometheus. .
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 02:40 PM   #90
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,872
iTrader: (22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Not exactly, God (aliens, matter, etc) is something that has always been. Nothing is nothing. Just think about nothing for a minute. It kind of make my head hurt. No time, no space, no anything and then boom, everything. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.
You need to start praying for a sense of humor, better sarcasm detection, or both.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 02:44 PM   #91
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,859
iTrader: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
You need to start praying for a sense of humor, better sarcasm detection, or both.
Yeah, I got it. I just didn't show my emotion in text form. .
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 06:43 PM   #92
opie
www.krissplicing.com
 
Join Date: 07-21-08
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 808
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post

Opie, I don't have time to quote/unquote everything you said.

I'll try and summarize. You talked about things just being right and wrong. My question is why? Why are they right or wrong? To take it a step further, how do those limits help us move towards a stronger speicies?
Ill define wrong as I see it. Right would be the opposite of what Im about to type.

Wrong is living your life or conducting yourself in a manner that adversely effects other people, or your immediate family. Such as stealing, raping, mugging etc. Thats pretty general, and I can break it down, but I believe my definition covers just about every base.

Having respect for your neighbor and fellow man helps everyone move towards a stronger species.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
When I say 'we're accidents' I'm refering to the fact that, if you believe in Macro evoultion, we're all accidents. Our exsistence is happenstance and to try and put purpose or reasons to that existence seems pointless. Our lives our 'a blip on the radar' as you said. We have no effect on the future as individuals nor really as larger groups. What's the point of following morals if they won't effect the grand scheme of things (thousands/millions of years)?
First you would have to actually believe your existence has no effect on the future. A. Einstein, G. Washington, T. Edison, S. Jobs, E. Whitney..... Just to name a few, all have effected the future they left behind. This doesn't even scratch the philanthropists that give the majority of their money away like Annenberg. ALL effected the future they left behind.

Im not sure I buy into the "accident" notion. Generally speaking, it takes two people to engage in sex to create a human. Now, you can argue the outcome of that activity is an accident, but engaging in that activity was not. And placing the burden of the "accident" on the by product of the activity seems to me to be putting that person at a disadvantage right out of the gate.

However.... While we agree that in general most folks can not comprehend that we are just a blip on the radar, they do look at their lives as being long. Mortality is lost on the young. So unless you are going to end your pointless existence, its best to make the best of it while you are here.
opie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 06:46 PM   #93
opie
www.krissplicing.com
 
Join Date: 07-21-08
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 808
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
How did you come to be if there is no God / gods?
My mother and father had sex.
opie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2013, 06:50 PM   #94
opie
www.krissplicing.com
 
Join Date: 07-21-08
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 808
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I know that question never ends. That's my point. You either have to have something that is eternal (God, Matter, aliens) or something from nothing.
Or we are living the Truman show in endless loop.

It doesn't have to be either or. Maybe we are the 5th installment on this planet.
opie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2013, 01:16 PM   #95
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,859
iTrader: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by opie View Post
Ill define wrong as I see it. Right would be the opposite of what Im about to type.

Wrong is living your life or conducting yourself in a manner that adversely effects other people, or your immediate family. Such as stealing, raping, mugging etc. Thats pretty general, and I can break it down, but I believe my definition covers just about every base.

Having respect for your neighbor and fellow man helps everyone move towards a stronger species.
Those are our societal norms at the moment. You're basing your 'right and wrong' according to what society says is right or wrong. All we need is an emerging society in another country that doesn't agree with those morals and we're screwed if we don't adapt. Then our morals change to accommodate what's happening to us instead of what is truly right or wrong.

Quote:
First you would have to actually believe your existence has no effect on the future. A. Einstein, G. Washington, T. Edison, S. Jobs, E. Whitney..... Just to name a few, all have effected the future they left behind. This doesn't even scratch the philanthropists that give the majority of their money away like Annenberg. ALL effected the future they left behind.
That's 5 people out of trillions of people. Statistically you have to have a few. But for the most part, I would say that we have about 500 years tops of people remembering who we are. 7 - 800 if you do something 'beyond the norm'. Jesus was 2000 years ago and he's already starting to loose credibility.

Quote:
Im not sure I buy into the "accident" notion. Generally speaking, it takes two people to engage in sex to create a human. Now, you can argue the outcome of that activity is an accident, but engaging in that activity was not. And placing the burden of the "accident" on the by product of the activity seems to me to be putting that person at a disadvantage right out of the gate.
I'm referring to the reason life began on earth. As I understand it (and my biology major wife has tried to explain it to me) that life happened on accident. Had it not been for a few random things we would still be bubbles of single celled organisms on the surface of rocks.

[/quote]

However.... While we agree that in general most folks can not comprehend that we are just a blip on the radar, they do look at their lives as being long. Mortality is lost on the young. So unless you are going to end your pointless existence, its best to make the best of it while you are here.[/QUOTE]

I think making the best of it could en tale for some being Immoral. My original though was it would make sense for a small group of atheists to be those people because of the thinking I've been portraying here.

When you take eternity and any repercussions of your actions out of the picture (the big picture) I dont' think there would be any reason to follow morals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opie View Post
Or we are living the Truman show in endless loop.

It doesn't have to be either or. Maybe we are the 5th installment on this planet.
But who created the show? Who created the Technical director? The Scene designer? .
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2013, 01:49 PM   #96
BlooMule
LENORE!!!
 
BlooMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: A little North of Deetroit and a little South of Roseville
Posts: 23,198
iTrader: (12)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Sounds like something right out of the sci fi channel.

I cannot prove there is a God just like you cannot prove we were deposited here by space aliens.
Roman historians(not Christians) have written about Jesus and who He was and what He did. We have documented who His disciples were. We also have eye witness accounts of what happened.
We have more proof of His existence than aliens from outer space.
Hold on there Wilbur, no one is disputing that a man named Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth around 2000 years ago and had a group of followers, and made speeches about how we should love one another.

What we are debating is the deity part.
__________________
-rw-rw-rw
BlooMule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2013, 02:30 PM   #97
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,296
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Those are our societal norms at the moment. You're basing your 'right and wrong' according to what society says is right or wrong. All we need is an emerging society in another country that doesn't agree with those morals and we're screwed if we don't adapt. Then our morals change to accommodate what's happening to us instead of what is truly right or wrong.
Yes. I think the concept of "absolute morals" is something that was made up by religion. Societal norms, and the morals that come with it are ever changing, or evolving as I stated earlier. You need look no further than the old testament for proof of that.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2013, 02:34 PM   #98
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,296
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlooMule View Post
Hold on there Wilbur, no one is disputing that a man named Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth around 2000 years ago and had a group of followers, and made speeches about how we should love one another.

What we are debating is the deity part.
That's exactly why I sometimes refer to myself as an agnostic Christian. I believe that Jesus existed, I'm just not sure the story that got recorded in the Bible is accurate.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2013, 02:42 PM   #99
opie
www.krissplicing.com
 
Join Date: 07-21-08
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 808
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Those are our societal norms at the moment. You're basing your 'right and wrong' according to what society says is right or wrong.
IMO, those are universal norms. I do realize and accept that generally society dictates morality. But that doesn't mean that what society dictates as being moral or right, actually is.

No one individual should have the power, authority or right to adversely effect another individual, on purpose. Thats the beauty of our founding documents, they set in stone our individual rights. If we still had a Government that respected those protected rights, our basis of morality would be a bit clearer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
All we need is an emerging society in another country that doesn't agree with those morals and we're screwed if we don't adapt. Then our morals change to accommodate what's happening to us instead of what is truly right or wrong.
Or we fight to retain what is deemed as right.

Last edited by opie; November 1st, 2013 at 02:46 PM.
opie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2013, 02:44 PM   #100
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,341
iTrader: (8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
That's exactly why I sometimes refer to myself as an agnostic Christian. I believe that Jesus existed, I'm just not sure the story that got recorded in the Bible is accurate.
Out of curiosity, what evidence would be required to make you believe that a recorded history is accurate? Not just the bible, but any recorded history.
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:10 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.37114 seconds with 52 queries