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Old October 30th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #41
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From a strictly biological, evolutionary point of view, yes, but there's more. Not only are we to reproduce, but we are to reproduce offspring that will also reproduce. And a creature that is able to learn to exist within the society in which is was born will be better able to do that than one which cannot.
This is deep. But if we were a society of warriors with no moral to be kind to each other, would there not also be survival of the fittest? Your argument that our cultural morals evolved with with the species is absurd, if for no other reason than that there is not one uniform set of cultural morals across the species. Polygamy is the norm in some cultures whereas monogamy is the norm in others. Eye for an eye is the norm in one culture where forgive thy neighbor is the norm in another. In some cultures cannibalism is even acceptable. Yet we all evolved together as a species?

One other comment about evolution...if the traits that allow one to survive best is what is passed down through generations, then why do native americans and alaskans that live in climates of extreme cold temperatures have no facial hair to help stay warm?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #42
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This is deep. But if we were a society of warriors with no moral to be kind to each other, would there not also be survival of the fittest? Your argument that our cultural morals evolved with with the species is absurd, if for no other reason than that there is not one uniform set of cultural morals across the species. Polygamy is the norm in some cultures whereas monogamy is the norm in others. Eye for an eye is the norm in one culture where forgive thy neighbor is the norm in another. In some cultures cannibalism is even acceptable. Yet we all evolved together as a species?

One other comment about evolution...if the traits that allow one to survive best is what is passed down through generations, then why do native americans and alaskans that live in climates of extreme cold temperatures have no facial hair to help stay warm?
If we were a society of warriors we would have a different set of morals. Learning and taking advantage of those morals would be reinforced by survival of the fittest.

No, morals are not the same through out the world. We don't look the same either. So whatever caused the changes in our appearance could also have caused the changes to our morals.

I don't know why native Americans or Alaskans don't have facial hair. It's not something I've studied.

So if morals came from God, and we were all descended from Adam and Eve, and Noah and family, why don't we all have the same morals?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #43
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Our base morality is all founded in some form of religion or another. I'm not saying just the ten commandments, there are plenty of other influences. Either way though, those morals are derived from the fear or respect to a deity. Which non-believers and atheists have no care for. Why do they then still behave? Does it come off as lunacy to anybody else?

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Morality is a choice. People are rational beings and can choose to behave rationally or not. If they choose to be rational, it is because they want to live. Their purpose is life. We choose to be moral because we want to live. What benefits life is good, what destroys it, is evil.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 06:56 AM   #44
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So if morals came from God, and we were all descended from Adam and Eve, and Noah and family, why don't we all have the same morals?
Do you recall why Moses smashed the 10 commandments (moral code)?
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Old October 31st, 2013, 06:56 AM   #45
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Your argument that our cultural morals evolved with with the species is absurd...
cough. talking snakes. cough.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 07:16 AM   #46
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Do you recall why Moses smashed the 10 commandments (moral code)?
no.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 07:47 AM   #47
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no.
God passed down his moral code to man in the form of the 10 commandments, given to Moses. Moses tried to deliver the 10 commandments to man, only to find them choosing to live in corruption and debauchery. In other words, although God tells man how to live (morals), man often chooses to ignore these principles and sin.

Coincidentally, it is this imperfection of sin that separates us from the holiness of God's kingdom.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 07:49 AM   #48
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This is deep. But if we were a society of warriors with no moral to be kind to each other, would there not also be survival of the fittest? Your argument that our cultural morals evolved with with the species is absurd, if for no other reason than that there is not one uniform set of cultural morals across the species. Polygamy is the norm in some cultures whereas monogamy is the norm in others. Eye for an eye is the norm in one culture where forgive thy neighbor is the norm in another. In some cultures cannibalism is even acceptable. Yet we all evolved together as a species?

One other comment about evolution...if the traits that allow one to survive best is what is passed down through generations, then why do native americans and alaskans that live in climates of extreme cold temperatures have no facial hair to help stay warm?
No morals ever existed prior to Jesus. Fact!
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Old October 31st, 2013, 07:49 AM   #49
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cough. talking snakes. cough.
Agreed. Many Christians do not agree with the Pentecostal rituals and do not believe them to be biblical. Or were you referring to the middle-eastern practice of snake charming?
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Old October 31st, 2013, 07:55 AM   #50
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Agreed. Many Christians do not agree with the Pentecostal rituals and do not believe them to be biblical. Or were you referring to the middle-eastern practice of snake charming?
No, that's snake handling. I'm talking about the talking snake that is at the core of your religious belief.

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Old October 31st, 2013, 07:56 AM   #51
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God passed down his moral code to man in the form of the 10 commandments, given to Moses. Moses tried to deliver the 10 commandments to man, only to find them choosing to live in corruption and debauchery. In other words, although God tells man how to live (morals), man often chooses to ignore these principles and sin.

Coincidentally, it is this imperfection of sin that separates us from the holiness of God's kingdom.
So you have no problem believing that man could turn away from morals sent from God, but think it's absurd to suggest that humans in different parts of the planet could have evolved different morals?
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:00 AM   #52
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Lol you really think religion is the only reason for morals than why do so many priests molest little boys?
Becuase we live in a fallen world that is run by people. Further more, priests are forced to not marry. IMO, this notion is a misguided usage of some of the NT texts. In most of those texts, the trailing end of the text mentions you should marry if you can't control your self. Priests that can't control them selves sexual should not be priests.


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opie said......
Opie, I don't have time to quote/unquote everything you said.

I'll try and summarize. You talked about things just being right and wrong. My question is why? Why are they right or wrong? To take it a step further, how do those limits help us move towards a stronger speicies?

When I say 'we're accidents' I'm refering to the fact that, if you believe in Macro evoultion, we're all accidents. Our exsistence is happenstance and to try and put purpose or reasons to that existence seems pointless. Our lives our 'a blip on the radar' as you said. We have no effect on the future as individuals nor really as larger groups. What's the point of following morals if they won't effect the grand scheme of things (thousands/millions of years)?

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Yeah, I don't know where the "accident" thing came up. I'm seriously hoping that lc4x isn't actually legitimately asking the questions he's asking, I'm hoping he's just trying to make some kind of point, whatever it may be .
I'm asking them, but I'm trying to make a point. If you believe in macro evoultion, what benefit does 'following the rules' bring to our species?

What's even a scarier notion is that what if our morals some day reflect my last question? What's to keep us from changing our morals to allow us get stronger? If we're accidents, nothing. There is no compass to our morals if we are accidents.

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I'm curious as to why LC4X equates enjoying life with heinous acts of debauchery.
I don't equate enjoyment to heinous acts of debauchery. Although I woudl imagine some do. I just don't see the point of morals if our lives, per macro evolution, are inconsequential.

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What do you mean by accident? In the world of science (the world of understanding) the word doesn't need to exist, because there are no accidents, there are just actions and the reasons they happen. Whether those actions were unintentional or surprising to you (an accident) is largely emotional.

So with that said, there is no purpose to our beginning. There is simply a reason we had a beginning. Or, for all we know you could say it's one and the same. We haven't gotten that far yet.
I think morals are inherently an emotional thing. What purpose do they serve 'in the world of science'? If we look at our lives scientifically, we're all just a bunch of chemical reactions walking around. Just like plants and any other animal. So why do we hold to our morals (which IMO elevate us over plants and other animals) when, in the scientific world, there is no difference?

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Morality is a choice. People are rational beings and can choose to behave rationally or not. If they choose to be rational, it is because they want to live. Their purpose is life. We choose to be moral because we want to live. What benefits life is good, what destroys it, is evil.
How do we, as a race of accidents (i'm going to keep using that to make a point) decide what's right and wrong? Do we do this to strengthen our species? Do we do it to get the best enjoyment out of life? What is our compass that decides what is good and evil?

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cough. talking snakes. cough.
cough. red hearing. cough
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:02 AM   #53
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We should do a religious discussion meet and greet.

I'm serious.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:04 AM   #54
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We should do a religious discussion meet and greet.

I'm serious.
I fear that I would not be nearly as well put together as I may come across online. But I think it could be fun.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:06 AM   #55
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We should do a religious discussion meet and greet.

I'm serious.
Dave Kerwin would be a great choice as discussion leader/pastor Dave
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:11 AM   #56
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I fear that I would not be nearly as well put together as I may come across online. But I think it could be fun.
That's one of the reasons.

People of religious persuasion need to be tested every once in a while.

There's also the fact that you will never change anyone's opinion over the internet.

People are also far less inclined to make extremely disrespectful and ignorant comments in person compared to the internet.

Most of the time these conversations devolve into something that insults everybody's intelligence. A real life discussion about it all would end up very different. If it maintains civility it would pretty much be a discussion of philosophy between a group of grown men. Something that has been a part human culture for thousands of years. Something I think everyone involved could walk away from with plenty to think about and not in a negative way.

I would also nominate Dave to run the group.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:25 AM   #57
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So you have no problem believing that man could turn away from morals sent from God, but think it's absurd to suggest that humans in different parts of the planet could have evolved different morals?
1) I have not problem believing man can turn away from morals sent from God

2) The premise of evolution is that we evolved AS A SPECIES, with a highly conserved genetic code. Although there are minor differences within the species (SNPs), as a whole the species is very similar (according to evolution). You stated that morals are a part of that evolutionary process. If so, then I would not expect to have such major polar differences in morals observed across subgroups within a species, as that would lead to major divergence and eventually separate species.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:38 AM   #58
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People are also far less inclined to make extremely disrespectful and ignorant comments in person compared to the internet.
Not everyone.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:43 AM   #59
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Old October 31st, 2013, 08:47 AM   #60
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Not everyone.
True.


But if it happens it will show the entire group exactly who that person really is and since they aren't mature enough to handle this type of discussion they will be asked to leave and not invited back.
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