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Old September 20th, 2013, 11:59 AM   #81
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This has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I have ever read.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #82
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you seem to be hung up on a couple of things. one is ranking.

you haven't cited, nor have I looked at the actual differences in those rankings. rankings in both of these cases are a discrete metric. however the actual scores are potentially infinite.

what if there's actually a 1 penny difference in average annual compensation between the 50 states, and only a 0.001% difference in the scoring. not as newsworthy to look at the actual dispersion as it is to rabidly point at ranking... usually, when that's the case, it's because just perhaps, the dispersion doesn't tell the story that an author wants to point out.

oh. as for "standardized testing" - Michigan's students are most typically scored based on MEAP - a Michigan thing. If I honestly was as worked up as you are on this, I'd damned well be sure I studied the methodology used in correlating the supposed metric across the 50 states.

my guess, and yes, it's just a guess is that you'd rather foam at the mouth and keep pointing to rankings taken at least somewhat out of context...


the analogy is fine - you being hung up on the amount of months in the year for each task is meaningless. just as criminals aren't always on the same shift as a good paid cop, and kids will skip homework assignments that are supposed to be done while not under the direct teaching efforts of a teacher...
You obviously should have paid more attention to teachers when you were learning to read and comprehend.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:02 PM   #83
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You obviously should have paid more attention to teachers when you were learning to read and comprehend.
do you know what "discrete" means? or are you just inclined to point, foam at the mouth and rant while making "I gotta poop faces" ?
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:24 PM   #84
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do you know what "discrete" means? or are you just inclined to point, foam at the mouth and rant while making "I gotta poop faces" ?
So show me the correct reports or information I should be comparing instead. Just pointing and saying you are Rong is less credible than the published reports already provided in this thread.

We shouldn't hold any teacher accountable for educating because there is no statistically significant way of measuring their performance relative to one another or other states?

And your analogy is not fine, I don't know how to make it any clearer than I did for you.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #85
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So show me the correct reports or information I should be comparing instead.

We shouldn't hold any teacher accountable for educating because there is no statistically significant way of measuring their performance relative to one another or other states?
I'm not the one all rabid and foaming at the mouth based on a disconnected discrete ranking system. If I was, I'd do the homework to find out what was behind those rankings.

There will always be 50 different ranks of teacher pay vs. some measure of student performance metric. The important thing should not be the respective ranking, but how far along each dispersion line one is. I used the illustration of a penny difference in pay as an illustration. So what if we're 2nd in the Nation in pay - what if the gap between pay was only $3k/year from top to bottom?

Similarly, what if the gap between acceptable reading performance was literally only 1/2 basis point across the nation - there is still supposedly enough spread to rank 'best to worst' - is it really meaningful to do so? Especially since the one link on page one admits that there are data gaps. (Nebraska isn't even in the rankings)

Honestly, I'm not all that worked up over it to do the research, but again, if I were, I'd do so before taking a loosely linked, news source / headline as the reason to get my blood pressure up. *shrug*

You apparently don't have the interest in doing so. Why that is, I can't answer. Can you?
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #86
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So you can't answer it, haven't looked into it, but somehow you're more credible by saying it's Rong than the people that published said reports?


You must need really large doorways with a head as big as you must walk around with. Kudos.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #87
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Teaching just does not lend itself to a hours worked vs. production vs. pay rate analysis like many other professions. A teacher need to put in enough hours to get the job done. The pay rate for teachers needs to be sufficient to attract quality teachers who will get the job done.

A teacher need to work as many hours as necessary to to effectively teach the students. How many hours that is will depend on subject, grade level, class size, teaching style, how well the teacher manages their time, what other tasks are expected of them, and probably other things I'm not thinking of. I do not think that in most cases just adding hours to the teachers work year will result in better educated students.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #88
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Teaching just does not lend itself to a hours worked vs. production vs. pay rate analysis like many other professions. A teacher need to put in enough hours to get the job done. The pay rate for teachers needs to be sufficient to attract quality teachers who will get the job done.

A teacher need to work as many hours as necessary to to effectively teach the students. How many hours that is will depend on subject, grade level, class size, teaching style, how well the teacher manages their time, what other tasks are expected of them, and probably other things I'm not thinking of. I do not think that in most cases just adding hours to the teachers work year will result in better educated students.
Perhaps the most educated response in this thread. Applicable to many professions though that don't have the same luxury. I wish I could just say "I've met my annual goal and am taking the rest of the summer off"
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Old September 20th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #89
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Perhaps the most educated response in this thread. Applicable to many professions though that don't have the same luxury. I wish I could just say "I've met my annual goal and am taking the rest of the summer off"
I was just going to say the same thing. I have to put in as many hours as required to get my job done, could be 35 (some weeks it is, but rarely)...some weeks its 50+
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Old September 20th, 2013, 02:05 PM   #90
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I was just going to say the same thing. I have to put in as many hours as required to get my job done, could be 35 (some weeks it is, but rarely)...some weeks its 50+
Unfortunately for most (such as me) about 10 minutes before the current job is done another project is dumped on my lap. Today is a perfect example where after putting in 55 hours this week (assuming I get out the door by 6pm), I was just asked to complete a new project by Monday afternoon. Unfortunately this happens most weekends. I wish I got a weekend off, let alone the summer off... In fact, I have taken 4 vacation days this year, both to take my son up to college. And I got the privilege to have my laptop with me and calling into teleconferences the entire time.

And yes, I realize I am typing this at 2pm on a Friday, but considering I'll probably have 70 hours in for the week by the time Sunday evening roles around, I need some short breaks.

The point is, that the argument that "teachers chose the career to have the summers off" is not all that relevant. In today's job market, most of us are committing a LOT more to our jobs than originally expected due to increased performance demands and reduced labor force. I see that the same could be expected for teachers (thus the 'performance of schools' comes into the picture).
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Old September 20th, 2013, 02:24 PM   #91
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My wife is a teacher and works aprox-2-3 weeks before actual classes start to set up the classroom, prepare, make lesson plans, ect. When schools lets out it’s a week more to wrap up the year. She works the year usually from 7:30-4:30 a day, sometimes more but rarely less. Mixed in are parent teacher conferences, meetings, continued education, time for planning and countless hours of other tasks. Added on to this are parents who accept no responsibility for their children and think teachers should/will raise their children.

The numbers don't lie but I can personally vouch that $63,000 a year average is very high for teachers and represents a master’s degree minimum if not a doctorate level of education. This also takes into account all after hours pay such as coaching sports, summer classes, drivers ed ect. My wifes district has not seen raises/cost of living/years of service for the last 5-6 years and will pay more for insurance plus take a 3% salary cut.

To close if anyone has a problem with teachers pay there are many colleges which offer these classes, I personally recommend CMU. For only around 5 years and $100,000 you can also be a system leaching, mooch on the people, who gets to babysit and has most of the year off.

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Old September 20th, 2013, 04:08 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Unfortunately for most (such as me) about 10 minutes before the current job is done another project is dumped on my lap. Today is a perfect example where after putting in 55 hours this week (assuming I get out the door by 6pm), I was just asked to complete a new project by Monday afternoon. Unfortunately this happens most weekends. I wish I got a weekend off, let alone the summer off... In fact, I have taken 4 vacation days this year, both to take my son up to college. And I got the privilege to have my laptop with me and calling into teleconferences the entire time.

And yes, I realize I am typing this at 2pm on a Friday, but considering I'll probably have 70 hours in for the week by the time Sunday evening roles around, I need some short breaks.

The point is, that the argument that "teachers chose the career to have the summers off" is not all that relevant. In today's job market, most of us are committing a LOT more to our jobs than originally expected due to increased performance demands and reduced labor force. I see that the same could be expected for teachers (thus the 'performance of schools' comes into the picture).
I'm all for putting in the work to get the job done, or taking one for the team every now and then, but why day after day and week after week? It seems that just because you're willingly overworked you expect others need to do the same? And this has nothing to do you with your job title or salary.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #93
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I'm all for putting in the work to get the job done, or taking one for the team every now and then, but why day after day and week after week? It seems that just because you're willingly overworked you expect others need to do the same? And this has nothing to do you with your job title or salary.
It is a result of the current economy. It's in the news all the time. High unemployment rates and those that are working are getting paid less to do more work. Unfortunately I am the norm. Considering that this is happening to most of the tax-payers, I think it is completely fair to assess whether changes need to be made for work expectations of people who's salary is paid by tax-dollars. If Michigan schools were ranked #1 in the world, or even country, I don't think there would be any scrutiny over hours or pay.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #94
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Unfortunately for most (such as me) about 10 minutes before the current job is done another project is dumped on my lap. Today is a perfect example where after putting in 55 hours this week (assuming I get out the door by 6pm), I was just asked to complete a new project by Monday afternoon. Unfortunately this happens most weekends. I wish I got a weekend off, let alone the summer off... In fact, I have taken 4 vacation days this year, both to take my son up to college. And I got the privilege to have my laptop with me and calling into teleconferences the entire time.

And yes, I realize I am typing this at 2pm on a Friday, but considering I'll probably have 70 hours in for the week by the time Sunday evening roles around, I need some short breaks.

The point is, that the argument that "teachers chose the career to have the summers off" is not all that relevant. In today's job market, most of us are committing a LOT more to our jobs than originally expected due to increased performance demands and reduced labor force. I see that the same could be expected for teachers (thus the 'performance of schools' comes into the picture).
But again, an extra hour of work from me or you or most people means another hour of whatever contribution to make to our employers. The contribution is a nearly direct 1 for 1. We work 10% more, our employers get 10% more. I don't see teaching working that way. A teacher working 10% more does not make kids 10% smarter, or the education 10% better.

And you also seem to be under the impression that teachers have not suffered at all from the recent recession. Based on what I'm reading here and elsewhere that does not seem to be the case.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #95
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But again, an extra hour of work from me or you or most people means another hour of whatever contribution to make to our employers. The contribution is a nearly direct 1 for 1. We work 10% more, our employers get 10% more. I don't see teaching working that way. A teacher working 10% more does not make kids 10% smarter, or the education 10% better.

And you also seem to be under the impression that teachers have not suffered at all from the recent recession. Based on what I'm reading here and elsewhere that does not seem to be the case.
Per your example, if I work 10% more, my employer gets 10% return
If the tax-payer is the employer of teachers, then if the teacher works 10% more then the tax-payer (ie, kids and society) gets a 10% return. Your example assumes that the performance of the school system is at 100% capacity and therefore more hours does not equal better results. I would argue that the fact that other states and countries are performing better suggests that we have not tapped 100% of our capacity.

I understand that wages have been cut for teachers and jobs lost. It sucks! Both or these at par with private sector reflected by the decreased median income and increased unemployment/underemployment rates over the past 4 years.
I understand teachers still have pensions..., but most private sector positions do not.
I understand teachers are still working the same "hours" they did 20 years ago...

This was meant as an exercise to justify allowing an 8 week sabbatical for teachers. Unfortunately prevents objectivity.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #96
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I would argue that the fact that other states and countries are performing better suggests that we have not tapped 100% of our capacity..
You can argue all you want, doesn't make you correct.

You need to spend more time digging deeper into the real reasons for low performance and then figure out if making teachers work more hours for free will really rectify those issues. Even if you tried to squeeze teachers for free hours, you still increase costs due to the other factors described earlier, since buildings and other staff need to operate extended hours.

You can start improving the statewide averages by fixing Detroit. I'm sure you can do this, seems everyone around here knows everything.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #97
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I'm all for putting in the work to get the job done, or taking one for the team every now and then, but why day after day and week after week? It seems that just because you're willingly overworked you expect others need to do the same? And this has nothing to do you with your job title or salary.
You find lots of suckers out there. Once you start doing it, its always expected. Long term, it demonstrates either a company or an employee with poor time management/budgeting skills.

But I agree, the whole thread comes off as a jealousy thing. Really, thats how it almost always is when people start complaining about others salaries, especially when the targets seem to be doing well for themselves.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #98
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AMC-You complain about working so many hours, no time off with projects dumped in your lap but yet are playing on a offroad forum argueing about teachers pay. GET TO WORK!! FINISH YOUR PROJECTS and go home. If you work 10% harder-go home 10% sooner 55hrsX10%+5.5hrs (less internet-more work) you wouldn't have to worry unless unlike teachers your hourly and not salary....

Haggar-You nailed it. I make a good living-this is done by overtime-I hate the hours, but love the pay- I drive an hour each way and worked 7 12's last week-with a days/midnight flip in the middle.

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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #99
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Per your example, if I work 10% more, my employer gets 10% return
If the tax-payer is the employer of teachers, then if the teacher works 10% more then the tax-payer (ie, kids and society) gets a 10% return. Your example assumes that the performance of the school system is at 100% capacity and therefore more hours does not equal better results. I would argue that the fact that other states and countries are performing better suggests that we have not tapped 100% of our capacity.

I understand that wages have been cut for teachers and jobs lost. It sucks! Both or these at par with private sector reflected by the decreased median income and increased unemployment/underemployment rates over the past 4 years.
I understand teachers still have pensions..., but most private sector positions do not.
I understand teachers are still working the same "hours" they did 20 years ago...

This was meant as an exercise to justify allowing an 8 week sabbatical for teachers. Unfortunately prevents objectivity.
And you seem to be assuming that increasing the hours a teacher works, but keeping the instruction time the same will help close the performance gap with other places. I do not think that is necessarily true. I do not think spending more time making lesson plans or grading papers will lead to better results in education.

I'm not understanding what you want teachers to be forced to do for the summer while the kids are off that will improve the performance of our schools.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #100
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I didn't read most of the other stuff posted. My personal opinion is most teachers are getting paid what they are worth (Considering what they have to go through to be a teacher.) If you extrapolate what their wage would be if they worked 12 months a year, I still feel they are being paid accordingly. Granted, I don't like some of their uber Union, socialistic mentalities, but that's another subject.
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