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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:01 PM   #161
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I'm fine with the term atheist, I just do not agree with you on it's meaning. An Atheist has decided how they feel about it, I have not.

a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.




Not knowing. It is a concept that most westerners seem to have a tough time with. In the Zen Buddhist practice I've been studying lately this is an important concept. Once you accept not knowing you become more open to new ideas.

When I do not have enough information I say i do not know and try not to form beliefs about things I do not know about.
I'm sorry, but I see the answer of "I don't know" to the question "Do you believe _______" as a cop out. I didn't ask if you know or not, I asked if you believed. If you don't have enough information to know something, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't believe it, either.

Regardless, would you agree that you and I are basically at the same point, but just have an agree to disagree moment on the label we put on ourselves?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:12 PM   #162
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Mike, I see what you're driving at. Would it make more sense if I said "I want to believe"?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:28 PM   #163
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I'm sorry, but I see the answer of "I don't know" to the question "Do you believe _______" as a cop out. I didn't ask if you know or not, I asked if you believed. If you don't have enough information to know something, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't believe it, either.

Regardless, would you agree that you and I are basically at the same point, but just have an agree to disagree moment on the label we put on ourselves?
Do you believe it will rain a year from today? We could answer yes or no, but the answer would be meaningless because as far as I know none of us have enough information to form a belief on the subject. I do not think I have enough information to form a belief regarding the existence or non-existence of God.

But yes, it's mostly about labels, which is why I do not like labeling people.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:33 PM   #164
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Mike, I see what you're driving at. Would it make more sense if I said "I want to believe"?
I know I'm just arguing semantics, but I think it's interesting and important. Especially in this type of situation. We are basically (I think) at the same point with similar conclusions, but we have different labels for the same things.

AJ,

I know what you're saying, I've said it before. You're skeptical and think it would make life so much easier to be able to believe it. However, I'm not sure if I'd want to believe it or wish for it to be true (if we're talking about Christianity). It's all just so weird and messed up. I'd wish for a much simpler "thing" that offered good people an afterlife of being able to hang out with their friends and family for as long as they want, without all the blood sacrifice stuff. :)
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:37 PM   #165
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Do you believe it will rain a year from today? We could answer yes or no, but the answer would be meaningless because as far as I know none of us have enough information to form a belief on the subject. I do not think I have enough information to form a belief regarding the existence or non-existence of God.


But yes, it's mostly about labels, which is why I do not like labeling people.

No, I do not believe it will rain a year from today. I do not have enough information/evidence to be able to predict that, therefore I do not subscribe to a positive belief that it will rain a year from today. I believe it could be possible for it to rain a year from today, however.

:)
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:42 PM   #166
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I know I'm just arguing semantics, but I think it's interesting and important. Especially in this type of situation. We are basically (I think) at the same point with similar conclusions, but we have different labels for the same things.

AJ,

I know what you're saying, I've said it before. You're skeptical and think it would make life so much easier to be able to believe it. However, I'm not sure if I'd want to believe it or wish for it to be true (if we're talking about Christianity). It's all just so weird and messed up. I'd wish for a much simpler "thing" that offered good people an afterlife of being able to hang out with their friends and family for as long as they want, without all the blood sacrifice stuff. :)
I'm pretty sure we are on exactly the same page
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:49 PM   #167
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No, I do not believe it will rain a year from today. I do not have enough information/evidence to be able to predict that, therefore I do not subscribe to a positive belief that it will rain a year from today. I believe it could be possible for it to rain a year from today, however.

:)
But the default position of not having a positive belief is not to have a negative belief.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:04 PM   #168
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No, I do not believe it will rain a year from today. I do not have enough information/evidence to be able to predict that, therefore I do not subscribe to a positive belief that it will rain a year from today. I believe it could be possible for it to rain a year from today, however.

:)
You're dumb. It will rain a year from today without a doubt.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 06:46 AM   #169
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But the default position of not having a positive belief is not to have a negative belief.
Three statements:

A. I do not believe it will rain.

B. I believe it will not rain.

C. I believe it will rain.

I don't need to have a negative belief (B), I can choose not to believe (A).

Again, I find withholding belief until suitable evidence is presented, the best scenario for me.

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Old August 23rd, 2013, 06:50 AM   #170
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You're dumb. It will rain a year from today without a doubt.
Do you have a Farmers Almanac?
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:04 AM   #171
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You guys sure have a lot of rules, for not being an "organized religion". If you were meeting somewhere to discuss your theology, you would have to call yourself a church..............oh wait, you do that here.

just food for thought
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:05 AM   #172
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Three statements:

A. I do not believe it will rain.

B. I believe it will not rain.

C. I believe it will rain.

I don't need to have a negative belief (B), I can choose not to believe (A).

Again, I find withholding belief until suitable evidence is presented, the best scenario for me.
I agree, except I would also withhold disbelief and say I don't have enough information to form any type of belief, positive or negative.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:06 AM   #173
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I don't call myself anything, and don't really care what others think. I find humor in xxx religion telling xxx religion "they're doing it wrong"
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:06 AM   #174
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You guys sure have a lot of rules, for not being an "organized religion". If you were meeting somewhere to discuss your theology, you would have to call yourself a church..............oh wait, you do that here.

just food for thought
Yes, logic tends to have lots of rules.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:13 AM   #175
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Do you have a Farmers Almanac?
He'll just go to a strip club and make it rain.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:29 AM   #176
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Yes, logic tends to have lots of rules.
..and yet you use very little. I see more devil's advocate in your posts than anything else. It's the debate you crave, not the knowledge.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 07:59 AM   #177
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You guys sure have a lot of rules, for not being an "organized religion". If you were meeting somewhere to discuss your theology, you would have to call yourself a church..............oh wait, you do that here.

just food for thought
These rules you speak of, could you list a few? From what I've seen in the discussions, the only rules I've seen discussed are the ones that define fact verses evidence verses guess. Not all parties involved in this discussion are using the same set of definitions has to what qualifies as facts and so forth.

From what I see from your post, you only bring a bit of mud slinging to the conversation, not a shred of valuable information to the discussion.

One last thing. The only Atheist in this discussion bringing a lot of rules to the table is mikesova. He seems to have a thing about defining who each person is and is getting mired in the details instead of bringing evidence to support OPs original statement.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 08:05 AM   #178
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..and yet you use very little. I see more devil's advocate in your posts than anything else. It's the debate you crave, not the knowledge.
I don't deny that I enjoy the debate, but I definitely crave the knowledge as well. I am also constantly curious about how people have arrived at the conclusions they have and how they justify them. Playing devil's advocate is one way to try to get to that.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 08:55 AM   #179
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One last thing. The only Atheist in this discussion bringing a lot of rules to the table is mikesova. He seems to have a thing about defining who each person is and is getting mired in the details instead of bringing evidence to support OPs original statement.
Just trying to show how I came up with why I call myself an atheist and to show Bruce that I'm at the same place he is, just using a different adjective.

The original topic...well, It makes sense to me. However, I don't think it actually matters much, except for skeptics to say nanana-boo boo, we're smarter than you, which doesn't really accomplish much.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 09:04 AM   #180
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I agree, except I would also withhold disbelief and say I don't have enough information to form any type of belief, positive or negative.
This is the point we're "mired" in. I don't see withholding belief as a type of belief. To me, you either believe something or you don't. No need to say that you're also withholding dis-belief, unless you're trying make someone/something more comfortable with your position.
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