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Old June 25th, 2013, 07:25 AM   #1
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Default Faith by works or works by faith - Faith Validated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=WCt_j3syOjw

This is an example of two authors (from the bible) that, at first look, are contradicting each other. If we take a more in depth look and think about what each one is saying, in context, we can obviously see that they are actually working together in what they are saying.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 07:33 AM   #2
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Cliff Notes?
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Old June 25th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #3
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Or text so I don't have to sit for 45 minutes watching?
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Old June 26th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #4
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Cliff notes....Kinda

The link is to the church website that has the sermon notes on it. I probably could find a link to all his notes on this sermon but it would be closer t0 10+ pages.

What I got out of it:

Works are not a requirement for salvation but a fruit. James says that "faith with out works is dead" which would make most people think that you have to have works in order for salvation but that's not true. The works are a sign that you truly have that faith in Christ. Pastor Keith goes further in the sermon to say that alot of us, my self included, can tend to have faith in our faith, which doesn't produce fruit. James is giving the reader a way to validate thier faith by saying there should be obvious fruit (works) that come from that faith. If not, you probably don't have your faith in the right thing (Christ).

Paul's goal in his writings is to show that we can not produce salvation through acts. We can't meet God's standards so we need Christ. At first glance the two opinions could appear to be contradictory but they are talking about two different kinds of Justification. Paul is talking about Justification to God while James is talking about justification of the believers faith.


I'd really challenge you guys to go through the sermon notes. He has alot of good quotes from some very intelligent people.

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Old June 26th, 2013, 10:36 AM   #5
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Coming from the guy that thinks Jesus was riding dinosaurs..........yeah, no.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
Coming from the guy that thinks Jesus was riding dinosaurs..........yeah, no.
It's from my Pastor who has a Doctorate in Biblical history and has studied the bible for 50+ years. Not only him but many sources who are literally the leaders in theological and biblical history.

If you paid attention to the last thread, which is gone for some odd reason, you would know that I don't care about that stuff. Either way, this isn't from me. This is from a professional expert on the subject matter.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 11:13 AM   #7
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It's from my Pastor who has a Doctorate in Biblical history and has studied the bible for 50+ years. Not only him but many sources who are literally the leaders in theological and biblical history.

If you paid attention to the last thread, which is gone for some odd reason, you would know that I don't care about that stuff. Either way, this isn't from me. This is from a professional expert on the subject matter.
There is no such thing as a professional expert on "faith"
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Old June 26th, 2013, 11:23 AM   #8
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okay, okay ...... question about religion for you experts.......

does it say [command] in the 'holy writings, etc,' that the only way one can be religious is to do so IN a church? must i go to a "house of worship" in order to be faithful and accepted by God?

also, to the gist of this thread,,,,,if deeds were in fact the way to heaven then folks would be falling all over themselves fighting to put more $ in the sunday plate and NO church sponsored charity / work event would ever, ever be at a lack of attendance.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 11:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Cliff notes....Kinda

The link is to the church website that has the sermon notes on it. I probably could find a link to all his notes on this sermon but it would be closer t0 10+ pages.

What I got out of it:

Works are not a requirement for salvation but a fruit. James says that "faith with out works is dead" which would make most people think that you have to have works in order for salvation but that's not true. The works are a sign that you truly have that faith in Christ. Pastor Keith goes further in the sermon to say that alot of us, my self included, can tend to have faith in our faith, which doesn't produce fruit. James is giving the reader a way to validate thier faith by saying there should be obvious fruit (works) that come from that faith. If not, you probably don't have your faith in the right thing (Christ).

Paul's goal in his writings is to show that we can not produce salvation through acts. We can't meet God's standards so we need Christ. At first glance the two opinions could appear to be contradictory but they are talking about two different kinds of Justification. Paul is talking about Justification to God while James is talking about justification of the believers faith.


I'd really challenge you guys to go through the sermon notes. He has alot of good quotes from some very intelligent people.
I'm sure it's a great sermon and he is a really smart guy, but the problem, as usual, is that for those of us that question if there is a God, or if the Bible is "the word of God" or even an accurate record of the teachings of Jesus, an argument comparing two different passages from the Bible doesn't mean a whole lot.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhri View Post
okay, okay ...... question about religion for you experts.......

does it say [command] in the 'holy writings, etc,' that the only way one can be religious is to do so IN a church? must i go to a "house of worship" in order to be faithful and accepted by God?

also, to the gist of this thread,,,,,if deeds were in fact the way to heaven then folks would be falling all over themselves fighting to put more $ in the sunday plate and NO church sponsored charity / work event would ever, ever be at a lack of attendance.
I would say I am by no means an expert, but...the answer to your question is no you do not need to go to a church to be accepted by God.
There are online churches where you can hear the word but to get more out of what Christ has in store for you it would not hurt to be around other like minded people. You can learn more and have questions answered.
Like the old saying, "Iron sharpens Iron"
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Old June 26th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #11
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Faith does not equal Facts.
Facts do not require Faith.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 07:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
There is no such thing as a professional expert on "faith"
Jesus. Boom.

I meant subject manner as the bible. And he is an expert on that Subject manner

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhri View Post
okay, okay ...... question about religion for you experts.......

does it say [command] in the 'holy writings, etc,' that the only way one can be religious is to do so IN a church? must i go to a "house of worship" in order to be faithful and accepted by God?

also, to the gist of this thread,,,,,if deeds were in fact the way to heaven then folks would be falling all over themselves fighting to put more $ in the sunday plate and NO church sponsored charity / work event would ever, ever be at a lack of attendance.
In the early church they had no buildings. They just met in houses and on mountains, where ever they could. However, they met with other people who shared the same passion for the Gospel.

I think a building has little to do with our faith, it can give us memories of good times and a place to meet but that's it. I DO think that, as a believer, we need to be friends with other believers and share 'fellowship' often. Christianity is not something, IMO, you can do by your self.


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I'm sure it's a great sermon and he is a really smart guy, but the problem, as usual, is that for those of us that question if there is a God, or if the Bible is "the word of God" or even an accurate record of the teachings of Jesus, an argument comparing two different passages from the Bible doesn't mean a whole lot.
I'm not trying to prove that God exists. I'm merely showing, from an expert on the book, how some contradictions that people claim the bible has really have no grip if you understand the text in context.

I would also like to point out that the bible is just as accurate as any other ancient document such as the writings of Plato and Socrates. That's a minimum though. The amount of manuscripts for the bible blows those books out of the water. The best part is that, besides spelling differences, alot of the texts from 2000+ years ago match the texts that our current Translations use. I really wish there was a website I could show you, but I can't find it.

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Faith does not equal Facts.
Facts do not require Faith.
You missed the point.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 07:34 AM   #13
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Jesus. Boom.
So the only expert is a zombie, sweet.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 08:35 AM   #14
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So the only expert is a zombie, sweet.

I got board one day and came up with this.

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I'll give some Brief Examples of why it doesn't work with Zombies

1. The first sighting of Jesus was in a room with his Disciples and closest followers. That room was locked from the inside because the followers were scared the jews would come after them next. Jesus showed up in the middle of the room. Zombies can't walk through walls (unless they are dilapidated and falling apart)

2. Thomas (also known as doubting Thomas) was told to touch Jesus's wounds. He did. He later preached the Gospel to thousands. He did not become a Zombie

3. Zombies can't fly. Jesus Ascended into heaven at the end of 'it all' telling the disciples to go and share the gospel.

4. If Jesus was a Zombie, He wouldn't have been as cool and collected as he was portrayed in the Gospels after his Resurrection. He would have tried to bite everybody and turn them into zombies.

5. Zombies become zombies because of a Disease, Jesus Become alive agian (something zombies don't actually do) because of the power of God.

6. Zombies don't fulfill old testament law to the tee. We're talking over a hundred OT prophesies that he fulfilled, a majority before he was even able to wipe his own butt.

7. There are no 2000 year old Zombies that still have such a great of an effect on the world as Jesus. Neither are there any of those aforementioned zombies that have teachings that are widely excepted by believer and non believer. Christ does.

8. There are also not many Zombies that offend people in such a manner that they get pissed every time somebody talks to them about said zombie. Even if the person doing the talking is just trying to share love with someone they care about.

Obviously this is some what of a joke. But some truth.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 08:36 AM   #15
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Sorry, dinosaur riding zombie.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 09:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I'm not trying to prove that God exists. I'm merely showing, from an expert on the book, how some contradictions that people claim the bible has really have no grip if you understand the text in context.
I understand what you're trying to show. I'm just pointing out that a discussion about whether faith or works is more pleasing to God and will get you into heaven is not particularly meaningful to someone that's not even sure if God or heaven even exist.

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I would also like to point out that the bible is just as accurate as any other ancient document such as the writings of Plato and Socrates. That's a minimum though. The amount of manuscripts for the bible blows those books out of the water. The best part is that, besides spelling differences, alot of the texts from 2000+ years ago match the texts that our current Translations use. I really wish there was a website I could show you, but I can't find it.
I'm sure that the Bible that exist today is a reasonably accurate facsimile of what was original written. My skepticism, and is the same for any ancient document, is is it a true recording of events, or is it a telling of the legends well after the fact. Most reputable scholars see to agree that the gospels were written many years after the events they tell of, and were not actually written by the person they are attributed to. It's no different than the skepticism I feel when watching a movie supposedly based on actual events or people.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #17
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I understand what you're trying to show. I'm just pointing out that a discussion about whether faith or works is more pleasing to God and will get you into heaven is not particularly meaningful to someone that's not even sure if God or heaven even exist.
I can understand that it's not important to you, I was just bringing up a new horse to beat up. So to speak. What I think you can draw from this is that, when read in context, alot of things that seem contradictory are not. It doesn't prove God exists, it may just help someone who struggles with the contradictions they claim the bible has to see that it actually doesn't contradict anything.

You also have to realize his primary audience is believers. The point is that it's not about what is pleasing to God or not. It's about using a, IMO, logical method to test if your faith is true and active. It's a way for the believer to make a way point to judge if what they are doing is glorifying God.


Quote:
I'm sure that the Bible that exist today is a reasonably accurate facsimile of what was original written. My skepticism, and is the same for any ancient document, is is it a true recording of events, or is it a telling of the legends well after the fact. Most reputable scholars see to agree that the gospels were written many years after the events they tell of, and were not actually written by the person they are attributed to. It's no different than the skepticism I feel when watching a movie supposedly based on actual events or people.
I get that but you also have to realize that the culture back then was an oral culture primarily. Their games of 'telephone' were probably not nearly as interesting as ours because the majority of people could not read or write. I can understand the skepticism though.

I also like to note that not only the Gospels comprise the Christian faith. There are many letters that were written to early Christian Churches that are used for the doctrine of the faith. Corinthians, Philippians, etc..... From what I recall, alot of those letters were written with in 150 years of the resurrection. That time span, for ancient texts, is pretty accurate. Not only that, but alot of what is written in those books refers to things in the Gospels.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #18
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I'm sure that the Bible that exist today is a reasonably accurate facsimile of what was original written. My skepticism, and is the same for any ancient document, is is it a true recording of events, or is it a telling of the legends well after the fact. Most reputable scholars see to agree that the gospels were written many years after the events they tell of, and were not actually written by the person they are attributed to. It's no different than the skepticism I feel when watching a movie supposedly based on actual events or people.
Many years after????
Who do you think wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke, John????? The apostles maybe....
A lot of the new testament was written by Paul who was born near (within a single digit number of years) when Christ was born and who died approx. 30 years after Christ did (for obvious reasons). Many new testament books were written within a generation of the original twelve apostles so the recollection of the authors was quite good.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #19
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Many years after????
Who do you think wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke, John????? The apostles maybe....
A lot of the new testament was written by Paul who was born near (within a single digit number of years) when Christ was born and who died approx. 30 years after Christ did (for obvious reasons). Many new testament books were written within a generation of the original twelve apostles so the recollection of the authors was quite good.
I don't know. According to much I've read, many scholars do not think Matthew, Mark, Luke or John actually wrote them. Nor do they think that Paul wrote all of the letters attributed to him.
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