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Old May 10th, 2013, 08:19 AM   #41
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you mean like when you said nothing has improved, yet, even the little things have?
I never said nothing has gotten any better. I said there hasn't been big improvements and that they plateaued around y2k. Well with the exception of downhill since you proved me wrong on that.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 08:24 AM   #42
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I never said nothing has gotten any better. I said there hasn't been big improvements and that they plateaued around y2k. Well with the exception of downhill since you proved me wrong on that.
Yeah the exception of DH bikes, Enduro Bikes, XC bikes, Hubs, Wheels, brakes, headsets, forks, dropper posts, tires, etc you are 100% right, nothing has gotten better.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #43
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Yeah the exception of DH bikes, Enduro Bikes, XC bikes, Hubs, Wheels, brakes, headsets, forks, dropper posts, tires, etc you are 100% right, nothing has gotten better.
How long have you rode competitively? What high end road and mountain bikes have owned or at least put 50 miles on? By high end I mean bikes that come with a price tag over $4,000.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 09:02 AM   #44
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Old May 10th, 2013, 09:02 AM   #45
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How long have you rode competitively? What high end road and mountain bikes have owned or at least put 50 miles on? By high end I mean bikes that come with a price tag over $4,000.
The answers to your questions do not change the fact that every component on a bike has seen some sort of improvement over the last 10 years and side by side todays bike is nicer than the bike of 10 years ago.

Paying more for a bike does not make it "high end" putting a well thought out build together with the components that you want, that meet your needs, that work well together will make a better bike every single time.

It has been over 5 years since i have bought a complete (except for my dirt jumper, kids bikes and my fiance's XC bike) every other bike in my garage was bought as a frame and I put the parts on it that I wanted.

My road bike is a 1970 something Schwinn supersport. It's still sitting in my parents garage in the unridden since the 70's state that my dad gave it to me in.

You can argue all you want, but each year the manufacturers come out with new product, product they have improved upon from the "last" generation. Be it frame design, frame aerodynamics, materials used, etc.

To go back to it, you posted a wheelset from 2003. You paid $1000 for a similar wheelset at some time. Would you pay $1000 for the 2003 wheelset that had never been used or would you pay $1000 for a 2013?

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Since its release in 2000, the Ksyrium SL has been an evolutionary process without a single total rework of the initial design. Subtle improvements are made every year or two as new materials and technology are developed. The first change showed up when Mavic milled out the alloy between spokes to reduce weight and in 2008, a slightly lower profile front rim and oversized carbon front hub body trickled down from the then lighter 2007 Ksyrium ES. The Ksyrium SL has also received an asymmetrical (off-center) rear rim to even out spoke tension. Today, the Ksyrium remains one of the most popular wheels on the market and the design has spawned a slew imitators.

The Ksyrium SL includes a pair of Mavicís well thought out light release skewers (we canít believe that there is not an acronym for these yet!) and you also have the option of being covered by Mavicís MP3 extended warranty plan that doubles the standard warranty to two years and covers the rider against almost any and all normal ride based repairs in that time
So as you can see, the rims you posted from 2003 have had subtle improvements made to them over the last 10 years, you know, like I stated to you 100 times so far in this thread.

Things improve.

So, were the 2003 wheels a good price at $2-300? Sure, but depending on how many miles were on them, how hard they were ridden, how well they were maintained etc. My comment that they should be a good deal because they are 10 years old, still holds true.

Are you done yet?
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Old May 10th, 2013, 01:55 PM   #46
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Kickstand, where did I say "bikes have not improved at all in the last 10 years"? Small changes for sure, big changes not so much.

So since you never answered my question about riding truly high end bikes I'm guessing you never have. The article you quoted about the mavic ksyriums said they made "small changes but have not been completely redesigned since they have came out and still remain one of the top wheels". What does that tell you?? What it tells me is that the top wheels in the late 90s early 2000s are the same as they were before except for SMALL CHANGES like milling a little material on the side of the rim, a rear hub that has more even tension on the spokes and a couple other trivial things. I bet they are maybe 100 grams lighter at the most and they may hold true just a pinch better but not much. 10 years later and they are basically the same. Huh, who woulda thought....
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Old May 10th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #47
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So since you never answered my question about riding truly high end bikes I'm guessing you never have.
What kind of dick measuring contest are you attempting to make this?

I answered your question, I told you I don't buy completes. I try not to know how much I have into my bikes. I don't build them with shit components though.

My Fork cost more than your complete Voodoo Bizango. Is that high end enough for you?

I prefer sram components, I run xo shifters/derailuers, you think those are ok?

Mavic hoops, hope pro II Evo hubs

Avid Code brakes on the DH bikes, Elixir's on the XC bikes, and have a few pairs of juicy 3/5/7's laying around.

Is any of that stuff any good bike shop guy?


here let me go back and put this all into persepctive for you.

you said.

Quote:
These are what I ride. They are $1000 a set when I got mine so these are a good price.
i said
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I'd hope they are a good price, they are 10 year old wheels
So, we'll stop there for a minute. 10 year old wheels. USED 10 year old wheels. Yup, I still say I sure hope they are a good price, they are 10 year old USED wheels. Miles on the bearing, miles on the spokes, hoops, fatigue, maintenance, age, etc. Yup....I still say I hope they are a good price they are 10 year old wheels.

Then YOU said:
Quote:
Bikes haven't made any big upgrades in the last 10 years. My 2001 ciocc eom16.5 with campy record carbon components isn't any behind a brand new bike in any way except the date it was built. It is a steel framed 59cm bike that weighs in at 18#. As long as the wheels haven't been rode to death they are still top of the line.
Bikes-Well I think it's VERY obvious by now that BIKES have made MASSIVE improvments in just the last 5-6 years, let alone 10-13 years. I'll give you that road bike and hardtail mountain bike frame technology hasn't come 1 million miles, but as I already pointed out hydro formed frames, better carbon fiber frames, etc. have ALL been released since 2001.


I even told you already that, I mean I gave you that frames haven't made a BUNCH of improvments (again hardtail and road bike frames) but I still stand buy the fact that they HAVE improved.

Quote:
ummmm.....maybe road bikes, and maybe certain parts of bikes haven't made any major upgrades, but rear hubs have gotten better. Case in point mavic has made 2 or 3 legitamate updates to their rear hubs for MTB purposes just in the last few years.....or at least their marketing group would lead you to believe that.
Then you reply with this "gem"

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What is better about them? I got a Gary fisher 29er a couple years ago that was pretty top of the line and I wouldn't say it was any better than the late 90s voodoo bizango that I used to ride. In the late 90s early 2000s is when I feel bikes hit a plateau. For road bikes they limit you to 15# and you must have a double diamond frame to race. That made companies not attempt to make lighter components and frames. Directional carbon fiber was basically perfected in that era so you can have a Plush ride and have it be stiff side to side. Suspension geometry on mtb's hasn't gotten any better. Suspension lockouts were also just as good then as they are now. Disk brakes were also just as good then as now. They tried adding mores gears but all that did is make it so you have to have a more narrow finicky chain. There is no new materials that make anything lighter or stronger.
1. Pretty top of the line? So like was it over your $4k threshold, what model is it? What component level are you running?

Then, you go back into your road bike thing, and being lighter and a bunch of retarded shit, when nobody said anything about lighter, if you go back and look I mentioned mavic has made improvements to some of their hubs for reliability, no mention whatsoever of weight.

2. Suspension-Yeah, this is where you just got retarded and looked like a fool. In the late 90's and early 2000's we were riding elastomer suspension forks with terrible damping systems and rear suspension systems that had massive pedal bob, brake jack, serious chain growth/shrinkage issues through the suspension cycle, etc. Todays suspension is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the shit we rode 10-15 years ago, and still even better than the stuff we rode 5 years ago. My 2009 Kona Coilair doesn't hole a CANDLE to todays 6" all mountain and enduro bikes that the Coilair was built to be. Kona doesn't even make a coiler/coilair anymore and the bikes that replaced it have had significant tweaks to the suspension to improve on the design.

I won't even get into single pivots, horst links, dw-links, vpp links.

3. Disc Brakes - Clearly you don't know much about disc brakes.

Should I keep going?

Bikes have improved, components have improved, and small improvements in all areas of bikes (major improvements in others) all add up to better more improved bikes.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #48
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The reason I asked about how many high end top of the line bikes you have actually had experience with is not to say ha ha I'm better, it was to see if you had any real world experience with them or if you just go by what you read on the Internet. I did a little Internet research and found out that you are 100% right. The last decade has had more improvements in bicycle technology than any decade prior to this one. In y2k we were still riding junk elastomer shocks just like you said. i now realize that you have had the opportunity to ride and work on miltiple top end bikes built in every generation and have seen first hand for yourself how much better they have gotten. You are right and I am wrong, ill go back licking the windows of the short bus.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 07:12 PM   #49
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The reason I asked about how many high end top of the line bikes you have actually had experience with is not to say ha ha I'm better, it was to see if you had any real world experience with them or if you just go by what you read on the Internet. I did a little Internet research and found out that you are 100% right. The last decade has had more improvements in bicycle technology than any decade prior to this one. In y2k we were still riding junk elastomer shocks just like you said. i now realize that you have had the opportunity to ride and work on miltiple top end bikes built in every generation and have seen first hand for yourself how much better they have gotten. You are right and I am wrong, ill go back licking the windows of the short bus.


Well, that only took 30 posts

At least it kept me occupied during a really shitty day at work today
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Old May 10th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #50
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Well, that only took 30 posts

At least it kept me occupied during a really shitty day at work today
I love a good Internet argument when I'm sitting in a portashitter!
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Old May 10th, 2013, 07:54 PM   #51
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I love a good Internet argument when I'm sitting in a portashitter!
sounds cold
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Old May 10th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #52
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sounds cold
Cold???? I live in Colorado right now, it is 75 and sunny today!
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