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Old May 9th, 2013, 08:39 AM   #21
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Instead of making broad statements like "it is better" use examples of how it is better. You sound like the typical gl4x4 mouth breather that read some shit on the Internet and then turns around and pukes it out like their own idea. You are better than that kickstand
This thread is about road bikes. There honestly is not "much" to improve on a road bike. I also don't much keep tabs on road bike advancements because I don't roadbike, but I am certain there are other "gimmicks" that have come along in the last few years that have been improvements over 10 year old parts.

I also never said the wheels you posted were bad, I simply stated they shouldn't cost $1,000 since they were 10 years old.

However:
*Specialized just came out with a new road rim.
*Shimano now has electric wireless shifting systems
*I already told you MAvic has made design changes to some of their XC hubs I had done some research on.
*Carbon wheels have become much more available, hell, carbon is the new cool on anything mtb the last 2-3 years.
*29'ers
*650b
*anything DH related has come MILES since 2000. MILES. Shit, it's come miles since the Iron Horse Sunday changed the game in 2005
*Anything suspension tech related has improved DRASTICALLY, better dampers, stiffer chassis, lighter, more adjustability, pro pedal, lockouts, etc.
*Anything full Suspension for something other than DH has also improved by miles.
*Chain guides, retention, tensioners, all drastically improved.
*brakes have improved a TON in just the last few years.
*Dropper posts
*Hopey steering dampers
*tubeless (though I still haven't tried it I don't know how much "better" it is)
*clutch derailers


That's off the top of my head.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 08:48 AM   #22
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Suspension geometry on mtb's hasn't gotten any better. Suspension lockouts were also just as good then as they are now. Disk brakes were also just as good then as now. They tried adding mores gears but all that did is make it so you have to have a more narrow finicky chain. There is no new materials that make anything lighter or stronger.
You don't get out and ride much anymore do you?

"They tried" adding more gears? You do realize that thousands of people run 9, 10, or 11 speed perfectly fine right?

Have you even used newer disc brakes? You know, the ones where you don't have to bleed them every other ride, have better lever adjusatbility, pad contact adjustability, and quad piston calipers?

Yeah, hydroformed tubing is just for looks, they didn't start using that to make bikes stiffer and lighter.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 08:58 AM   #23
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I wi give you downhill bikes being better but not standard mtb or road. Downhill has fined a lot of popularity in the last 10 years. I bought a Santa Cruz v10 right around 2000 and it had all the top of the line components. That is the only long travel bike I have ever owned. The dh stuff wasn't my thing. Electric shifting isn't even close to being new, I had mavics version on a road bike in the late 90s.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 09:37 AM   #24
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I wi give you downhill bikes being better but not standard mtb or road.
Gee thanks for giving me that, even though you are still wrong.

Show me ANY full suspension "standard" mountain bike built in 2000-2003 that still has a relevant design today? Show me an "all mountain" or Enduro frameset from the early 2000's that will ride with any of todays bikes, oh, wait.....

So essentially what you're saying is that hardtail Mountain bike frames and road frames haven't changed a whole lot, but the forks got better, the brakes got better, the suspension has gotten better, the available choices for your drivetrain have gotten better, the available choices for rims have gotten better, wheels, tires, etc. But its still all the same right?



Yeah, the santa Cruz v-10 didn't really come out "around" 2000. The first year was in 2004, and the bike has since gone through how many design revisions to refine the suspension characteristics and make it a better bike? Did you have the awesome floating caliper brake set up that is now gone? What fork were you rocking? Please tell me you had a Monster T and it's as good as anything on the market today.

What about 9mm quick release axles? No need for 15 mm or 20 mm front through axles right? that's not an improvment it's just for looks?

How about rear axle spacing? 9x135 is all you need, no need for a 12x142 or a 150mm right? another fad, not an improvment?
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Old May 9th, 2013, 09:37 AM   #25
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Downhill has fined a lot of popularity in the last 10 years..
Yet it still hasn't found the glory days it had in the 90's
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Old May 9th, 2013, 11:32 AM   #26
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Voodoo hardtail frames (before they were mass produced) IMO ride better than any new hardtail on the market. I love the upright, quick steering head tube so much more than the laid back geometry that most bike have today. I also prefer a hardtail steel framed mtb with a steel breezer fork on it with standard rim v brakes over the newer stuff that is out now. Put some 1.8 tires on it and pick your lines right and it is a fast, light weight, simple bike. The way a bike feels is depending on the person riding it and what they like. I never said that bikes haven't made ANY improvements, I said they have hit a plateau. For example if you bought a bike with ultegra on it that was rebadged durace from a couple year prior. There was big improvements that were made every year. Now it is not like that. You get basically the same thing year after year with small improvements. I got that v10 shortly after I quit at the bike shop. I started my current job in 2002. My math was a little retarded this morning

I am not a fan of carbon fiber or aluminum frames, I don't like the way they feel. I like ti(not cheap lite speeds) and steel. Once again I don't do downhill so I'm sure you are 100% right on that stuff. I have had one dh bike and I sold that very quickly after I bought it. I would love to show you a picture but I am in Colorado until November and not driving home to prove it to you.

I don't ride anymore, the bikes I have left just collect dust now. I have a 79 Schwinn paramount with campy record on it and my 2001ish ciocc with campy record on it. I have a few frames and boxes of components stashed away in the barn also. I sold my mountain, bmx and the rest of road bikes off.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #27
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Voodoo hardtail frames (before they were mass produced) IMO ride better than any new hardtail on the market. I love the upright, quick steering head tube so much more than the laid back geometry that most bike have today. I also prefer a hardtail steel framed mtb with a steel breezer fork on it with standard rim v brakes over the newer stuff that is out now. Put some 1.8 tires on it and pick your lines right and it is a fast, light weight, simple bike. The way a bike feels is depending on the person riding it and what they like. I never said that bikes haven't made ANY improvements, I said they have hit a plateau. For example if you bought a bike with ultegra on it that was rebadged durace from a couple year prior. There was big improvements that were made every year. Now it is not like that. You get basically the same thing year after year with small improvements. I got that v10 shortly after I quit at the bike shop. I started my current job in 2002. My math was a little retarded this morning

I am not a fan of carbon fiber or aluminum frames, I don't like the way they feel. I like ti(not cheap lite speeds) and steel. Once again I don't do downhill so I'm sure you are 100% right on that stuff. I have had one dh bike and I sold that very quickly after I bought it. I would love to show you a picture but I am in Colorado until November and not driving home to prove it to you.

I don't ride anymore, the bikes I have left just collect dust now. I have a 79 Schwinn paramount with campy record on it and my 2001ish ciocc with campy record on it. I have a few frames and boxes of components stashed away in the barn also. I sold my mountain, bmx and the rest of road bikes off.
So what you are saying is because you prefer a 1979 K10 pick up that the 2013 Silverado isn't any better.

You're talking about a rigid hardtail frame. There isn't much to improve.

Just like the pick up truck, you can't really improve the bed much from that 79 to todays truck can you?

But you can imrpove the wheel bearings, transmissions, engines, creature comforts etc.

Just like suspension is better, hubs are better, sealed bearings, better headsets, new materials, new geometry, newer tires, wheels, etc.

Everything has improved, maybe not all on the same level of drastic-ness, but its improved.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:21 PM   #28
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I purchased a cyclocross bike about 7 years ago and made it more of a road bike. A couple of my co-workers have recently bought new cross bikes. I like some of the newer features on them compared to mine but I'm not going to run out and spend another 2K for a few minor improvements. Mine still works fine and with the limited amount of time I've had to ride the last few years it should last quite a while. I don't think my mtn bike even made it out of the garage last year.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:26 PM   #29
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I purchased a cyclocross bike about 7 years ago and made it more of a road bike. A couple of my co-workers have recently bought new cross bikes. I like some of the newer features on them compared to mine but I'm not going to run out and spend another 2K for a few minor improvements. Mine still works fine and with the limited amount of time I've had to ride the last few years it should last quite a while. I don't think my mtn bike even made it out of the garage last year.
No one is making the case that you should go get a new bike.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:59 PM   #30
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I know in Cycling you get what you pay for however......

I bought this wheel set mid february and have about 200 miles on them with out issue.

Vuelta Corsa HD road Wheels

I got them mostly because of the review of 'clydes' that use them on thier bikes. I'm 250 and haven't had an issue but I know 200 MI isn't really a whole lot of abuse.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 02:32 PM   #31
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There has been huge jumps in tech over the corse of several decades, including the 2000s SRAM came out with their road groups that I feel is head and shoulders above shimano and campy in ease of use, I don't know the weight specs but I'm sure they are even. I love my force group I don't think I'll ever go back to shimano. So easy to set up and use.

Frames are lighter and stiffer to transfer power so much more efficient now compared to 10 years ago its crazy, not to mention they are more road compliant than ever to smooth out the ride and aero to cut the wind drag down.

My specialized carve mt bike is crazy to ride compared to my old rockhopper. Smoother, softer ride with tons more power transfer. It's so much more fun to ride.

As per ops question, what price range and use are you looking at? Lots of good wheels out there. I've always been a believer in using cheap heavy wheels to train on since the purpose is to get stronger then come race day put the light weight shit on and get faster. Why ruin a $1000+ wheel set cruising around town?
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Old May 9th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #32
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Why ruin a $1000+ wheel set cruising around town?
and that is why I still build dinosaurs. I think if you train on boat anchor the day you need the fast bike out of the box its a better ride. you just have to set the bikes up to handle similarly. the weight is the killer and so is the drag from the wheel buffeting.

My pal rode his "Dinosaur" and placed 7th in his over 50 class out of 1200 total riders. he has since bought a very nice fly spec to win on.

I still prefer the old stuff. I get few bikes here and there and have a couple in my collection.
I have a fairly rare Folis of Lyon (French) race bike and an Italian Atala Grand Prix
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Old May 9th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #33
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It's not so much that I want lighter and faster. It's just that they don't roll very well it's like the brakes are on when going downhill.

I had a vuelta wheel set on my old fixie that was much nicer. Although going faster to try and keep up with the cool kids would be good
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Old May 9th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #34
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So what you are saying is because you prefer a 1979 K10 pick up that the 2013 Silverado isn't any better.

You're talking about a rigid hardtail frame. There isn't much to improve.

Just like the pick up truck, you can't really improve the bed much from that 79 to todays truck can you?

But you can imrpove the wheel bearings, transmissions, engines, creature comforts etc.

Just like suspension is better, hubs are better, sealed bearings, better headsets, new materials, new geometry, newer tires, wheels, etc.

Everything has improved, maybe not all on the same level of drastic-ness, but its improved.
I agree it has improved but not drastically. Most high end wheels had sealed bearings in 2000 also. I don't see a lot of improvements with material either. A 79 k10 and a 13 silverado is a nowhere near a 2000 and a 2013 bike. Look at my old paramount and the technology compared to my 2000 ciocc.

I have only rode that paramount a couple times. An old customer of mine gave it to me since I liked it so much. He bought it brand new off the showroom floor and had it decked our with all the goodies. I'm lookin forward to getting it all cleaned up and used for decoration in the new house!
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Old May 9th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #35
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There has been huge jumps in tech over the corse of several decades, including the 2000s SRAM came out with their road groups that I feel is head and shoulders above shimano and campy in ease of use, I don't know the weight specs but I'm sure they are even. I love my force group I don't think I'll ever go back to shimano. So easy to set up and use.

Frames are lighter and stiffer to transfer power so much more efficient now compared to 10 years ago its crazy, not to mention they are more road compliant than ever to smooth out the ride and aero to cut the wind drag down.

My specialized carve mt bike is crazy to ride compared to my old rockhopper. Smoother, softer ride with tons more power transfer. It's so much more fun to ride.

As per ops question, what price range and use are you looking at? Lots of good wheels out there. I've always been a believer in using cheap heavy wheels to train on since the purpose is to get stronger then come race day put the light weight shit on and get faster. Why ruin a $1000+ wheel set cruising around town?
There is huge jumps when you buy bottom to middle of the line stuff but not when you compare high end to high end. Now they can make better products for cheaper. On a road bike you can only race a bike that is over 15# and in 2000 there were plenty of 15# bikes out there.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #36
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There is huge jumps when you buy bottom to middle of the line stuff but not when you compare high end to high end. Now they can make better products for cheaper. On a road bike you can only race a bike that is over 15# and in 2000 there were plenty of 15# bikes out there.
I'm referencing 105 to force, which I know force is more along the lines of ultegra but I've ridden ultegra and feel its night and day better with force. The shifting is more intuitive, 1 lever does everything. The campy I referred to is based on early 2000s 105 equivalent (don't recall the name) but that's more based on the shifting style using the thumb lever, I hated that. It did shift super smooth but was loud as hell when coasting, I always new when my brother was about to go cause his bike would go silent.

I know that properly set up 105 will shift better than shitty set up dura-ace, I'm talking about properly set up stuff.

Another thing is the top two groupos differ mostly in weight, and usually the heavier stuff will last a little longer. Which is why I said not to ride a $1000 wheel set to train on unless you have money to burn. I don't race, I'm to fat, but I built a nice 2005 spec s-works Tarmac frame I got for $500 with SRAM force group and it is head and shoulders above my 99 cannondale caad-8 just in power transfer alone.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #37
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I'm referencing 105 to force, which I know force is more along the lines of ultegra but I've ridden ultegra and feel its night and day better with force. The shifting is more intuitive, 1 lever does everything. The campy I referred to is based on early 2000s 105 equivalent (don't recall the name) but that's more based on the shifting style using the thumb lever, I hated that. It did shift super smooth but was loud as hell when coasting, I always new when my brother was about to go cause his bike would go silent.

I know that properly set up 105 will shift better than shitty set up dura-ace, I'm talking about properly set up stuff.

Another thing is the top two groupos differ mostly in weight, and usually the heavier stuff will last a little longer. Which is why I said not to ride a $1000 wheel set to train on unless you have money to burn. I don't race, I'm to fat, but I built a nice 2005 spec s-works Tarmac frame I got for $500 with SRAM force group and it is head and shoulders above my 99 cannondale caad-8 just in power transfer alone.
I would quit while you are ahead because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #38
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I would quit while you are ahead because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
and you base this on?
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Old May 10th, 2013, 07:55 AM   #39
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I'm referencing 105 to force, which I know force is more along the lines of ultegra but I've ridden ultegra and feel its night and day better with force. The shifting is more intuitive, 1 lever does everything.

The campy I referred to is based on early 2000s 105 equivalent (don't recall the name) but that's more based on the shifting style using the thumb lever, I hated that. It did shift super smooth but was loud as hell when coasting, I always new when my brother was about to go cause his bike would go silent.

I know that properly set up 105 will shift better than shitty set up dura-ace, I'm talking about properly set up stuff.

Another thing is the top two groupos differ mostly in weight, and usually the heavier stuff will last a little longer. Which is why I said not to ride a $1000 wheel set to train on unless you have money to burn. I don't race, I'm to fat, but I built a nice 2005 spec s-works Tarmac frame I got for $500 with SRAM force group and it is head and shoulders above my 99 cannondale caad-8 just in power transfer alone.
The campy you are referring to that is a 105 equivilant is Daytona. The reason it makes more noise when you are coasting is the wheels not the component group. Put his wheels on your bike and you will have the same issue.

The top two groups don't always only have weight that seperate them and the second to the top isn't going to last any longer than top because it is heavier. When you go from using steel to titanium for the same piece the titanium isn't going to wear any faster.

Brand new campy is hard to shift and also shifts loud. I love campy when you get 5-10 thousand miles on it and it shifts smooth as butter. Shimano wears out a lot faster because it does not have a very positive click.

The shimano/ campy argument is like the ford/ Chevy argument. Personally I love the thumb shift a lot more than shimano. You will find racers generally use shimano because it is cheaper and they get a new ride every year or two. Guys that plan to keep their bike for a long time and love the beautiful lines and attention to detail that campy offers go that route.

Like I said before you have to compare top of the line to top of the line. Everything you listed is very average, not high end.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #40
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I would quit while you are ahead because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
you mean like when you said nothing has improved, yet, even the little things have?
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