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Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:21 PM   #41
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No. Horsepower is simply a function of rpm. Spin the bigger engine faster. You need more head and better parts to do it but you will go faster.

There is a limit to what can be done at certain deck heights and heads.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:53 PM   #42
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No. Horsepower is simply a function of rpm. Spin the bigger engine faster. You need more head and better parts to do it but you will go faster.

There is a limit to what can be done at certain deck heights and heads.
Doesn't it become financially more effective to drop stroke and rev the piss out of it?

I have a hard time believing that you can rev the same as a 377 for relatively cheap.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 08:00 PM   #43
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Myself, I can barely say financially more effective and drag race anything in the same sentence.

If you're running brackets, why bother? Slow it down and let it live.

If your running heads up, someone is going to disregard "financially more effective" and you are lucky to be number two.

Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 08:32 PM   #44
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Doesn't it become financially more effective to drop stroke and rev the piss out of it?

I have a hard time believing that you can rev the same as a 377 for relatively cheap.
Something I will never understand about this debate........
You CANNOT rev the piss out of something JUST because you throw a shorter stroke crank in it.
Throwing a stock shorter stroke crank in a 400 doesn't mean you can magically rev it to 8,000RPM all day long and it lives. You HAVE to have good parts to do that. No way around it
It also depends on supporting hardware (heads/etc.)
It doesn't do you any good to spin 8,000RPM on any motor and have an induction package that makes no use of it.
Especially for a street setup, I would go the largest CI I possibly could.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 09:16 PM   #45
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I would hazard to say one of the most common mistakes is to under-cam a 400. The long stroke and high compression (even from flat top pistons) tame larger cams to deliver incredible mid-range torque.
To end this hijack (maybe), I would say the second most common mistake when building a 400 is to buy too small of head. I would say that out of the box Torquers are marginally better than the 993 with mild port work and good valves. If you are going to spend the money, get a more efficient head.

Torquers are a $1000 for a pair

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wr...70-1/overview/

Take a good look at TFS

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tf...make/chevrolet

Or Edelbrock

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed...make/chevrolet

Pay attention to heads priced per head verses heads priced per pair.

Because of the long stroke and hungry bores, you will have good port velocity compared to smaller brethren with the same cam. Don't be afraid to step up one size larger on the cam than you would have on a 350.

You won't regret either aluminum head for a nice running street engine.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:46 PM   #46
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If you can't tell, I'm getting the itch to wrench...(and help spend other people's money, wisely).

In regards to the fuel pump: my preference for the street is mechanical in most cases, stock really works really well (I run a Carter mechanical for the engine by itself). If the stock pump isn't keeping up, check for other causes; rusted fuel lines, pinched hoses or debris in the tank or pick up.

Carb: Again, I'm a fan of simplicity and really like a standard vacuum secondary Holley 750 3310. Look at swap meets, you should be able to find one. Get aquainted with it. Avoid the urge to go gonzo on the carb. Go too big and you'll have weak signal and you'll wonder why you have such large jets and still can't get any color in the plugs.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #47
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Now, I tend to go overkill on fuel system, but many years ago when dad ran a 406 in his Jeep, we ran stock lines, stock pump/etc. on his 532HP 406 and never had fuel supply issues.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #48
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Leaving pretty hard towards propane for longevity vs reliability vs use.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #49
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Now, I tend to go overkill on fuel system, but many years ago when dad ran a 406 in his Jeep, we ran stock lines, stock pump/etc. on his 532HP 406 and never had fuel supply issues.
I hear you, I would love to go overkill on my fuel system. In a way, I kind of did. I know that even with the stock pump and lines, I did not drop pressure at the top end with my 440 hp 406; the Carter Strip pump (mechanical) only made me feel warm and fuzzy. To me, return on investment was very low.

Now, I did add a dedicated electric pump for the spray.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #50
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Leaving pretty hard towards propane for longevity vs reliability vs use.
Propane is good to go off-road. Just keep plenty with you and I'd keep a gasoline back up if you run trails.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #51
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I went with a single large pump to keep up with both the motor and the bottle. Just isn't much room in a Jeep for 2 fuel systems!

Propane is out of my league, that's something I have never messed with.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 08:54 AM   #52
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In all my years messing with small blocks I have learned many things. One of the first things I learned is the long stroke in a 400 kills its rev potential.

You can talk about bigger heads and more ci all day but a 377 will rev so much quicker and higher with good parts it is no comparison imo.
Have you ever built a 400 that revved like a 350? No, it wont spin because of the long stroke...... dont give a fukc what head is on it. It's the rotating assembly that slows it not the amount of air air the heads flow.

We have built 400s and 377s with the best money can buy and the 377 will stomp a 406 every time in the upper rpms. A 377 with cola crank and oliver rods will spin to the moon,happily. A 400 with same parts wont go past 6500-7000 from what we have built, and takes all day to get there.

You need more then 23 ci to make up for 2000 rpms.

Gm made the 400 for trucks and heavy cars, if it had hotrod potential it would have been in camaros, novas, and chevelles.
Its a great torquey motor for a truck but the upper rpm power just isnt there imo.

Unless you actually build a 377 from your 406 you will continue to argue and throw out theries. Fuck theries, they dont win races.

And as far as a street machine goes it depends on the person. Im totally happy with a huge cam, low vacume and less torque down low. I like my street car to sound like a race car and run like one.
The 406 in camaro is quiet, makes huge torque and is a blast to drive. Anyone could drive it. The dz302 I had in it before made no torque,was lumpy and hard to drive.
I enjoyed each motor for what it was. I would bet my 302 put out the same hp with 100 lbs less torque then my 406. In a dragrace I think the 302 was just as fast because I cant hook up with the torque the 406 makes.

The 406 and 377 both great motors and each has their place. If I was building a car I would build a 377 because I am a rpm junkie. If I was building a truck I would build a 420 because torque at lower rpms work best.

Sorry to continue jacking your thread jake. I have always learned more by building shit and seeing what works then by listening to reason and theories. Just my. 02
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Old April 25th, 2013, 09:08 AM   #53
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Go back to laying tile Duane.

I think I'll have to pick up another 400 block for a much lower vehicle this may be a while down the road though...
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Old April 25th, 2013, 09:17 AM   #54
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Put a good stroker crank in that 400, I believe you can get a 4.125 crank for around 300 bucks but don't expect a cheap crank to handle high rpms only push cheapies to 6000 to 6500 rpms. You will also need 6.00'' rods I don't remember what piston pin height you will require but the rule of thumb is longer rods are stronger than shorter rods. As for heads you can expect to gain around 15 to 20 hp from slapping on a set of vortec heads; that's a conservative number because intake cam and pistons have a big effect on how efficient a set of heads are. A good street-able cam is .450 to .500 lift and for compression I prefer around 10.5.1 but recommend only running premium fuel. When you put a larger cam in an engine it allows for more flow of air and fuel and because of the increase in volume the piston now has to compress more fuel and air to create a larger explosion so an increase of compression ratio will make a more violent explosion which translates into more HP. Just my .02

A 4.125 crank should make her a 441ci sb

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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #55
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I agree that theories don't win races. I also think we aren't derailing this thread too bad, and as long as it's kept civil, the OP may decide he wants to go another route.
With that said, I'd rather put more stroke in a motor.
My 430'ish SBC with some really old Brodix 23* heads made 629HP on pump gas, and I believe that was at the 6,200-6,300 mark. Not the highest HP maker, but it's a nitrous motor. I just tore that down this year. Been running it for 4 years now, and let's just say it gets sprayed hard enough.
Dad runs a 430'ish SBC in his Jeep as well, but he ran some old GM 363 18* heads. His motor made 780 on just motor and made peak power at 6,800 (IIRC).
He's now running some CFE 15* heads on the same 430'ish ci motor, and it makes more power now (not gonna say how much though).
I honestly don't know of anybody running a 377 though. In the 20'ish years I've been going to the dragstrip (asphalt and sand), I could count on 1 hand the number of them I've ever even heard anybody running.
I personally prefer larger ci, but that seems to suit my needs better.
My Jeep previously had a pump gas 383. Usually saw 7,500-8,000RPM at the track. According to the RWHP numbers it made when it was in the car, it should have been making 520-550 FWHP.
At the track, I ran one tenth QUICKER with the 430'ish setup on just motor, than I was with the 383 and a small 150 shot.

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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:53 AM   #56
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Put a good stroker crank in that 400, I believe you can get a 4.125 crank for around 300 bucks but don't expect a cheap crank to handle high rpms only push cheapies to 6000 to 6500 rpms. You will also need 6.00'' rods I don't remember what piston pin height you will require but the rule of thumb is longer rods are stronger than shorter rods. As for heads you can expect to gain around 15 to 20 hp from slapping on a set of vortec heads; that's a conservative number because intake cam and pistons have a big effect on how efficient a set of heads are. A good street-able cam is .450 to .500 lift and for compression I prefer around 10.5.1 but recommend only running premium fuel. When you put a larger cam in an engine it allows for more flow of air and fuel and because of the increase in volume the piston now has to compress more fuel and air to create a larger explosion so an increase of compression ratio will make a more violent explosion which translates into more HP. Just my .02

A 4.125 crank should make her a 441ci sb
To further my reply though, I would not attempt to put even a 4.00" stroke crank in a stock block 400, let alone anything larger. 3.875 yes, but that would be the largest I'd want to go on a stock block.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #57
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In all my years messing with small blocks I have learned many things. One of the first things I learned is the long stroke in a 400 kills its rev potential.

You can talk about bigger heads and more ci all day but a 377 will rev so much quicker and higher with good parts it is no comparison imo.
Have you ever built a 400 that revved like a 350? No, it wont spin because of the long stroke...... dont give a fukc what head is on it. It's the rotating assembly that slows it not the amount of air air the heads flow.

We have built 400s and 377s with the best money can buy and the 377 will stomp a 406 every time in the upper rpms. A 377 with cola crank and oliver rods will spin to the moon,happily. A 400 with same parts wont go past 6500-7000 from what we have built, and takes all day to get there.
Sounds like you need a different builder.....my 4.1 stroke engine has no issues getting to 7500+ quickly.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #58
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Put a good stroker crank in that 400, I believe you can get a 4.125 crank for around 300 bucks but don't expect a cheap crank to handle high rpms only push cheapies to 6000 to 6500 rpms. You will also need 6.00'' rods I don't remember what piston pin height you will require but the rule of thumb is longer rods are stronger than shorter rods. As for heads you can expect to gain around 15 to 20 hp from slapping on a set of vortec heads; that's a conservative number because intake cam and pistons have a big effect on how efficient a set of heads are. A good street-able cam is .450 to .500 lift and for compression I prefer around 10.5.1 but recommend only running premium fuel. When you put a larger cam in an engine it allows for more flow of air and fuel and because of the increase in volume the piston now has to compress more fuel and air to create a larger explosion so an increase of compression ratio will make a more violent explosion which translates into more HP. Just my .02

A 4.125 crank should make her a 441ci sb
Really? Where do you get a good crank for $300. A good crank is almost 10x that. A stock 400 block would maybe take a 3.85 crank at most. Also why would you build a motor with a 4.125 crank and castrate it with a .450 lift cam and vortec heads. Not saying there bad they are good heads, just not on that type of motor.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #59
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In all my years messing with small blocks I have learned many things. One of the first things I learned is the long stroke in a 400 kills its rev potential.

You can talk about bigger heads and more ci all day but a 377 will rev so much quicker and higher with good parts it is no comparison imo.
Have you ever built a 400 that revved like a 350? No, it wont spin because of the long stroke...... dont give a fukc what head is on it. It's the rotating assembly that slows it not the amount of air air the heads flow.

We have built 400s and 377s with the best money can buy and the 377 will stomp a 406 every time in the upper rpms. A 377 with cola crank and oliver rods will spin to the moon,happily. A 400 with same parts wont go past 6500-7000 from what we have built, and takes all day to get there.

You need more then 23 ci to make up for 2000 rpms.

Gm made the 400 for trucks and heavy cars, if it had hotrod potential it would have been in camaros, novas, and chevelles.
Its a great torquey motor for a truck but the upper rpm power just isnt there imo.

Unless you actually build a 377 from your 406 you will continue to argue and throw out theries. Fuck theries, they dont win races.

And as far as a street machine goes it depends on the person. Im totally happy with a huge cam, low vacume and less torque down low. I like my street car to sound like a race car and run like one.
The 406 in camaro is quiet, makes huge torque and is a blast to drive. Anyone could drive it. The dz302 I had in it before made no torque,was lumpy and hard to drive.
I enjoyed each motor for what it was. I would bet my 302 put out the same hp with 100 lbs less torque then my 406. In a dragrace I think the 302 was just as fast because I cant hook up with the torque the 406 makes.

The 406 and 377 both great motors and each has their place. If I was building a car I would build a 377 because I am a rpm junkie. If I was building a truck I would build a 420 because torque at lower rpms work best.

Sorry to continue jacking your thread jake. I have always learned more by building shit and seeing what works then by listening to reason and theories. Just my. 02
The argument is invalid. If someone had a Cola crank and Oliver rods in a properly built 406, they wouldn't have built the 377 to begin with (unless they didn't have enough head). A friend runs the same parts as you describe in the bottom end of his 406 and he starts off at 6500 on the brake and shifts at 8000. That's before the spray.

How important is spin up again? The engine only has to spin up another couple thousand rpm after launch? I'm sure it can get that done in a few seconds, maybe even a couple or more times during the quarter mile...

And you say, your built 406 with these expensive parts couldn't get within 2000 rpm of your 8500 rpm, 377? Really? My hyper-eutectic piston, hydraulic-cam 406 has no trouble hitting 6500 rpm and yours can barely hit 6500 rpm with the best parts money can buy? I smell something and it's not race fuel.

And, I've yet to see an engine that wouldn't rpm real quick with a healthy shot of N20.

Using your rationale of 377 is better than 406, we'd still be building "301"s (you know, that engine gear heads built before GM released the 302) because that "long" 3.48 stroke in the 350s revved up too slow. Don't forget, the big block guys better hurry up and swap their 454s back to 427s.

Displacement rules, if you have the proper parts to support it.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 08:39 AM   #60
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The argument is invalid. If someone had a Cola crank and Oliver rods in a properly built 406, they wouldn't have built the 377 to begin with (unless they didn't have enough head). A friend runs the same parts as you describe in the bottom end of his 406 and he starts off at 6500 on the brake and shifts at 8000. That's before the spray.

How important is spin up again? The engine only has to spin up another couple thousand rpm after launch? I'm sure it can get that done in a few seconds, maybe even a couple or more times during the quarter mile...

And you say, your built 406 with these expensive parts couldn't get within 2000 rpm of your 8500 rpm, 377? Really? My hyper-eutectic piston, hydraulic-cam 406 has no trouble hitting 6500 rpm and yours can barely hit 6500 rpm with the best parts money can buy? I smell something and it's not race fuel.

And, I've yet to see an engine that wouldn't rpm real quick with a healthy shot of N20.

Using your rationale of 377 is better than 406, we'd still be building "301"s (you know, that engine gear heads built before GM released the 302) because that "long" 3.48 stroke in the 350s revved up too slow. Don't forget, the big block guys better hurry up and swap their 454s back to 427s.

Displacement rules, if you have the proper parts to support it.
Ha, I guess the fact that we were useing the same quality parts in the 406 doesnt matter then, you must be right even though the dyno said you are wrong.
If the heads didnt flow enough for the 406 how could they make over 100 more hp on the 377? They were the best heads you could buy, back then. They were about the only 18 you could buy. Obviously things are different now.

We are not talking about bigblocks we are talking about 377vs 400, thats another discussion.

Like I said untill you build a 377 you will asume the 406 is better, just like we did years ago. Its all good.
If you like wasting the best part of a smallblock (rpms) go ahead but I feel like
small blocks are meant to rev. If you want to shift at 6000 you might as well have a bigblock . I like to shift at 8.000+ it's just more fun.
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