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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:58 AM   #21
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Can anyone give me a reason to believe in Christianity that couldn't be also be used as a reason to believe in Islam? i.e. you can't change a few words (but keep the same argument) and use it to justify a belief in any other religion?

I ask, because, I have a feeling most Christians in America, are Christian, because Christianity has been a more popular religion in America and it has been passed down from family member to family member.

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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:45 AM   #22
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The only thing you enjoy is mocking God and people that have a faith in Him.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #23
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Religious persecution by atheism

Again....I don't care what faith you are. If you are stupid and lazy I will be annoyed by you.
How about just lazy?
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Old March 19th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #24
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Arguing the bible with Christians is a lost effort. They use it a la carte style to fit their personal beliefs, religious beliefs, or church's beliefs. And honestly, it's really no different than us heathen non-believers picking out the other stuff.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #25
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Wow. Two insults in one quote.
1 - gross misinterpretation of the Christan faith.
2 - Makes a blatant dis on the intelligence of some one willing to believe in some thing beyond them that they can't see.

He failed to realize that there are very logical people out there that have had a personal expierence that has lead them to believe in God.

His other mistake is rationalizing that if he finds fault in a religion that he finds fault in God. That his massive understanding of the world can somehow change God.
Please, show me one logical person who believes in the christian faith (Dave Kerwin doesn't count)
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Old March 19th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #26
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Please, show me one logical person who believes in the christian faith (Dave Kerwin doesn't count)
Me
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Old March 19th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #27
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Me
I said logical. You're the furthest thing from logical.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #28
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Please, show me one logical person who believes in the christian faith (Dave Kerwin doesn't count)
I have several family members who may qualify.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #29
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I said logical. You're the furthest thing from logical.
According to your standards(world view) I am not logical but to a biblical view the way I view things is normal.
I suppose it all depends on what topic you are referring to also.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #30
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I am not sure what "world view" means, but my standards are not standardized so please don't put a label on them.

No christian is logical, at least I have never had a logical discussion with any christian about religion.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #31
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I am not sure what "world view" means, but my standards are not standardized so please don't put a label on them.

No christian is logical, at least I have never had a logical discussion with any christian about religion.
There is the secular world view, looking at the world through your eyes and people that think on the same line as you and then you have a biblical christian view on things according to what the bible speaks about. The reason why you think of Christians as illogical because you do not understand our reasoning behind what we think.
The only way you would be able to figure out God and His people is B1
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Old March 19th, 2013, 02:32 PM   #32
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There is the secular world view, looking at the world through your eyes and people that think on the same line as you and then you have a biblical christian view on things according to what the bible speaks about. The reason why you think of Christians as illogical because you do not understand our reasoning behind what we think.
The only way you would be able to figure out God and His people is B1
No, the only reason I can not think of a christian as a logical person is because they place faith in something that they can not logically explain with out telling me that if I believed I would understand, or if I read the bible (which I have read many parts of) I would understand, or that the only way I can understand is to be one of gods people, etc.

You are incapable of normal logical discussion. You can not explain your faith in a logical way to a skeptic, you can not understand that it is completely normal and logical for others to have different beleifs (religious or otherwise) and quite frankly you are just proving my point with each and every response you give this thread.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #33
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No, the only reason I can not think of a christian as a logical person is because they place faith in something that they can not logically explain with out telling me that if I believed I would understand, or if I read the bible (which I have read many parts of) I would understand, or that the only way I can understand is to be one of gods people, etc.

You are incapable of normal logical discussion. You can not explain your faith in a logical way to a skeptic, you can not understand that it is completely normal and logical for others to have different beleifs (religious or otherwise) and quite frankly you are just proving my point with each and every response you give this thread.
As a Christian I can tell you that it is logical to others that believe in God but to people like yourself that don't, it would be illogical which is expected. It is logical for you to think of it as illogical, if that makes sence?
Non-believers that read the bible do get confused by its contents because it is written for people that believe in God. That is why it is called the Living Word of God because it comes to life for believers, it becomes relevent in our lives.
To non-believers it is just foolishness, which you have already said, it makes no sence to you.
God reveals His word and what it means to people who accept His word as truth.
I can and do have normal and logical discussions with people that do not have a belief in anything or even people that have different faiths. I guess I tend to look at people with different beliefs as not being normal. I see the belief in Jesus and Christianity as normal and to be the only truth that can be relied opon as truth that we can count on.
Scenario: I could meet you at a store, swap meet, gun show etc. and strike up a conversation and leave Jesus out of it and find common ground between us.
So the next time you meet a total stranger, it could be me just waiting for an opportunity to introduce you to Jesus
Or not,
just waiting for God to open that door of opportunity to share what He would have to say to you.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #34
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As a Christian I can tell you that it is logical to others that believe in God but to people like yourself that don't, it would be illogical which is expected. It is logical for you to think of it as illogical, if that makes sence?
Non-believers that read the bible do get confused by its contents because it is written for people that believe in God. That is why it is called the Living Word of God because it comes to life for believers, it becomes relevent in our lives.
To non-believers it is just foolishness, which you have already said, it makes no sence to you.
God reveals His word and what it means to people who accept His word as truth.
I can and do have normal and logical discussions with people that do not have a belief in anything or even people that have different faiths. I guess I tend to look at people with different beliefs as not being normal. I see the belief in Jesus and Christianity as normal and to be the only truth that can be relied opon as truth that we can count on.
Scenario: I could meet you at a store, swap meet, gun show etc. and strike up a conversation and leave Jesus out of it and find common ground between us.
So the next time you meet a total stranger, it could be me just waiting for an opportunity to introduce you to Jesus
Or not,
just waiting for God to open that door of opportunity to share what He would have to say to you.
So then, you're kind of saying that trying to use the bible to convert a non-believer wouldn't make much sense, then, right? ...since you just said that you have to already believe it, for it to make sense.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 07:12 PM   #35
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Old March 19th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #36
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Can anyone give me a reason to believe in Christianity that couldn't be also be used as a reason to believe in Islam? i.e. you can't change a few words (but keep the same argument) and use it to justify a belief in any other religion?

I ask, because, I have a feeling most Christians in America, are Christian, because Christianity has been a more popular religion in America and it has been passed down from family member to family member.

[IMG]/IMG]
Because Christianity is the only mainstream religion where God comes to us, his creation, to make what we did to him right. Any other Mainstream religion that has a heaven or hell or some form of afterlife requires the believer to try work thier way to thier eternal place in 'heaven'.

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Arguing the bible with Christians is a lost effort. They use it a la carte style to fit their personal beliefs, religious beliefs, or church's beliefs. And honestly, it's really no different than us heathen non-believers picking out the other stuff.
That's funny because every time I use scripture in my arguements I make sure it's in context and could read you the whole chapter, and if you had the time, the whole book and show you what it means.

That line of thinking is also pretty flawed when you take into account, which I don't expect you to because you probably don't know, that there are countless pastors that do what is called 'preaching through the bible'. This is where they will start at Mark 1 and go all the way through the book. Preaching every text that is in the book, explaining how it fits into the entirety of the bible. My pastor specifically will pick the verses that most Christians tend to shy away from and blow them up to point to the Gospel. He can do this because he has a Doctorate in Biblical studies and knows Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic.


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No, the only reason I can not think of a christian as a logical person is because they place faith in something that they can not logically explain with out telling me that if I believed I would understand, or if I read the bible (which I have read many parts of) I would understand, or that the only way I can understand is to be one of gods people, etc.

You are incapable of normal logical discussion. You can not explain your faith in a logical way to a skeptic, you can not understand that it is completely normal and logical for others to have different beleifs (religious or otherwise) and quite frankly you are just proving my point with each and every response you give this thread.
You're asking someone who has faith, which by definition, is the belief in things unseen, to give you logical (I tend to think more tangable) reasons to believe in God. Do you see the flaw in that?

When ever we try and give you reasons for why we believe in God you say we're stupid and ignorant. Do you understand why we may shy away from that?

I'll give it a go. I'll try to stay logical. Bear with me.

I believe what I believe for many reasons. I will be completely honest and say that one of those reasons is because of my up bringing. My dad's a Pastor, I grew up in church. It only makes sense that I would believe in God because of that. However, even in that thinking (hopefully logically thinking still) there is a flaw. A majority of Kids who are 'church' kids loose thier faith when they go away from thier parents. Why is this? More so, why would only certain people not loose thier faith?

My parents have made it abundantly clear that they would accept me if I didn't believe in God. But I still do. Not only that, but I've made plenty of steps of faith on my own that prove, to me, that it is my faith and my faith alone.

I also want to point out that my dad and I often get into debates on theological subjects that we don't match up on. Do you find it odd, with the "well you were raised that way and you're brainwashed" mentality, that I believe differently then my father does?

Anywho, On to why I believe. I have seen, with my own eyes (tangable proof to me), why God is real. For a logical person it would make sense to believe in something they've seen proof for. To a person just as logical who has not seen that proof it would appear as though that person is not logical. This is the major problem with our discussion. This is why we say "we can't really explain it intill you've experienced it".

The thing is, If I told you the ways God has reveled himself to me, they may not work for you. You have to have the experience by yourself and God will tailor fit it to you, where you are, and make it exactly what you need.

I will give you one example. When it comes to skill sets, I'm a mutt. I've had probably close to 15 jobs in my 27 years of life. I've been a grounds keeper, a night janitor, a pizza maker, a light designer, a sound engineer, a IT nerd, a Meijer associate, a set builder, a apprentice in one union, a camp counselor and now I'm a Camp administrator. Most of those jobs just fell into my lap. I didn't strive for them, I didn't play cut throat games to get to them. I've also been offered, at every single one, an open door to come back.

What they've allowed me to become is a sort of jack of all trades for the job that I believe God has Called me to. I believe that God put me in those jobs because he knew exactly what I needed to know to be where I am right now. Do I know everything? No, but I know that God has tailor fit me into the place I am to serve him.

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So then, you're kind of saying that trying to use the bible to convert a non-believer wouldn't make much sense, then, right? ...since you just said that you have to already believe it, for it to make sense.
Personally I'm not trying to convert anybody. I'm trying to get you guys to understand why we believe what we believe and how the bible isn't quite as flawed as you (or the skeptics bible) think it may be.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #37
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So then, you're kind of saying that trying to use the bible to convert a non-believer wouldn't make much sense, then, right? ...since you just said that you have to already believe it, for it to make sense.
To win people over to God it's how you live your life, how you treat others. They see a difference in you and they wonder why you are different. The rest is up to God.
People cannot make anybody come to God. It has to be a willingness on your part, then God will reveal himself to you.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:03 PM   #38
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You're asking someone who has faith, which by definition, is the belief in things unseen, to give you logical (I tend to think more tangable) reasons to believe in God. Do you see the flaw in that?

When ever we try and give you reasons for why we believe in God you say we're stupid and ignorant. Do you understand why we may shy away from that?

I'll give it a go. I'll try to stay logical. Bear with me.

I believe what I believe for many reasons. I will be completely honest and say that one of those reasons is because of my up bringing. My dad's a Pastor, I grew up in church. It only makes sense that I would believe in God because of that. However, even in that thinking (hopefully logically thinking still) there is a flaw. A majority of Kids who are 'church' kids loose thier faith when they go away from thier parents. Why is this? More so, why would only certain people not loose thier faith?

My parents have made it abundantly clear that they would accept me if I didn't believe in God. But I still do. Not only that, but I've made plenty of steps of faith on my own that prove, to me, that it is my faith and my faith alone.

I also want to point out that my dad and I often get into debates on theological subjects that we don't match up on. Do you find it odd, with the "well you were raised that way and you're brainwashed" mentality, that I believe differently then my father does?

Anywho, On to why I believe. I have seen, with my own eyes (tangable proof to me), why God is real. For a logical person it would make sense to believe in something they've seen proof for. To a person just as logical who has not seen that proof it would appear as though that person is not logical. This is the major problem with our discussion. This is why we say "we can't really explain it intill you've experienced it".

The thing is, If I told you the ways God has reveled himself to me, they may not work for you. You have to have the experience by yourself and God will tailor fit it to you, where you are, and make it exactly what you need.

I will give you one example. When it comes to skill sets, I'm a mutt. I've had probably close to 15 jobs in my 27 years of life. I've been a grounds keeper, a night janitor, a pizza maker, a light designer, a sound engineer, a IT nerd, a Meijer associate, a set builder, a apprentice in one union, a camp counselor and now I'm a Camp administrator. Most of those jobs just fell into my lap. I didn't strive for them, I didn't play cut throat games to get to them. I've also been offered, at every single one, an open door to come back.

What they've allowed me to become is a sort of jack of all trades for the job that I believe God has Called me to. I believe that God put me in those jobs because he knew exactly what I needed to know to be where I am right now. Do I know everything? No, but I know that God has tailor fit me into the place I am to serve him.



Personally I'm not trying to convert anybody. I'm trying to get you guys to understand why we believe what we believe and how the bible isn't quite as flawed as you (or the skeptics bible) think it may be.
I may need to admit that I was wrong.

You're somewhat logical (actually your defense of your faith has never really bothered me), it usually boils down to when I ask if you can understand why other people have chosen a different path/faith/religion than you.

I get people believe in what they believe in, but what drives me nuts is when people are so closedminded about someone elses beleifs and how they think theirs are the only way and that person must change.

I have my beleifs, you have yours, I see nothing wrong with my having my beliefs and you having yours. You're welcome to have yours, I'm welcome to have mine. I realize that my beleifs are not the only way to get through life and end up in a good place when I die. Hopefully you can do the same.....for Abe, well, I don't think he is logical enough to do the same.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:06 PM   #39
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Because Christianity is the only mainstream religion where God comes to us, his creation, to make what we did to him right. Any other Mainstream religion that has a heaven or hell or some form of afterlife requires the believer to try work thier way to thier eternal place in 'heaven'.



That's funny because every time I use scripture in my arguements I make sure it's in context and could read you the whole chapter, and if you had the time, the whole book and show you what it means.

That line of thinking is also pretty flawed when you take into account, which I don't expect you to because you probably don't know, that there are countless pastors that do what is called 'preaching through the bible'. This is where they will start at Mark 1 and go all the way through the book. Preaching every text that is in the book, explaining how it fits into the entirety of the bible. My pastor specifically will pick the verses that most Christians tend to shy away from and blow them up to point to the Gospel. He can do this because he has a Doctorate in Biblical studies and knows Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic.




You're asking someone who has faith, which by definition, is the belief in things unseen, to give you logical (I tend to think more tangable) reasons to believe in God. Do you see the flaw in that?

When ever we try and give you reasons for why we believe in God you say we're stupid and ignorant. Do you understand why we may shy away from that?

I'll give it a go. I'll try to stay logical. Bear with me.

I believe what I believe for many reasons. I will be completely honest and say that one of those reasons is because of my up bringing. My dad's a Pastor, I grew up in church. It only makes sense that I would believe in God because of that. However, even in that thinking (hopefully logically thinking still) there is a flaw. A majority of Kids who are 'church' kids loose thier faith when they go away from thier parents. Why is this? More so, why would only certain people not loose thier faith?

My parents have made it abundantly clear that they would accept me if I didn't believe in God. But I still do. Not only that, but I've made plenty of steps of faith on my own that prove, to me, that it is my faith and my faith alone.

I also want to point out that my dad and I often get into debates on theological subjects that we don't match up on. Do you find it odd, with the "well you were raised that way and you're brainwashed" mentality, that I believe differently then my father does?

Anywho, On to why I believe. I have seen, with my own eyes (tangable proof to me), why God is real. For a logical person it would make sense to believe in something they've seen proof for. To a person just as logical who has not seen that proof it would appear as though that person is not logical. This is the major problem with our discussion. This is why we say "we can't really explain it intill you've experienced it".

The thing is, If I told you the ways God has reveled himself to me, they may not work for you. You have to have the experience by yourself and God will tailor fit it to you, where you are, and make it exactly what you need.

I will give you one example. When it comes to skill sets, I'm a mutt. I've had probably close to 15 jobs in my 27 years of life. I've been a grounds keeper, a night janitor, a pizza maker, a light designer, a sound engineer, a IT nerd, a Meijer associate, a set builder, a apprentice in one union, a camp counselor and now I'm a Camp administrator. Most of those jobs just fell into my lap. I didn't strive for them, I didn't play cut throat games to get to them. I've also been offered, at every single one, an open door to come back.

What they've allowed me to become is a sort of jack of all trades for the job that I believe God has Called me to. I believe that God put me in those jobs because he knew exactly what I needed to know to be where I am right now. Do I know everything? No, but I know that God has tailor fit me into the place I am to serve him.



Personally I'm not trying to convert anybody. I'm trying to get you guys to understand why we believe what we believe and how the bible isn't quite as flawed as you (or the skeptics bible) think it may be.

Are you just the resident christian spokesperson or do you actually offroad?
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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:06 PM   #40
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As a Christian I can tell you that it is logical to others that believe in God but to people like yourself that don't, it would be illogical which is expected. It is logical for you to think of it as illogical, if that makes sence? You rarely make sense
Non-believers that read the bible do get confused by its contents because it is written for people that believe in God. That is why it is called the Living Word of God because it comes to life for believers, it becomes relevent in our lives.
To non-believers it is just foolishness, which you have already said, it makes no sence to you. I've never stated that christianity or the bible do not make sense to me, I have stated that I do not choose to have faith in the bible and jesus the same as you do.
God reveals His word and what it means to people who accept His word as truth.
I can and do have normal and logical discussions with people that do not have a belief in anything or even people that have different faiths. I guess I tend to look at people with different beliefs as not being normal.And here is where you again start to show that you are not a logical thinker. I see the belief in Jesus and Christianity as normal and to be the only truth that can be relied opon as truth that we can count on. You are confusing truth with faith.
Scenario: I could meet you at a store, swap meet, gun show etc. and strike up a conversation and leave Jesus out of it and find common ground between us. You "could" but, can you?
So the next time you meet a total stranger, it could be me just waiting for an opportunity to introduce you to Jesus
Or not,
just waiting for God to open that door of opportunity to share what He would have to say to you.
Let that stranger know when I am interested in changing MY beliefs I'll do so, I don't want or need anyone elses help to do so.
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