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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:27 AM   #21
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This thread just happened with the cruze.

I think there were a LOT of people who would have jumped all over this idea.........
  • When diesel was cheaper than unleaded
  • when diesels were able to get better mileage with out being emissions choked
  • if the diesel was offered at a reasonable upgrade price
  • when oil wasn't priced through the moon so the oil changes didn't kill you
  • when diesels were fairly simple and reasonable to repair
  • when gas engines couldn't make reasonable torque/hp for towing
  • before the eco boost
  • when 1/2 tons got worse mileage than 3/4 diesels

A diesel 1/2 ton with todays emissions bullshit, in my eyes, just isn't going to make enough power and get enough mpg's to make people all giddy to pay the extra cost. Add in the fact that power isn't your limiting factor in towing with a half ton truck and there you have it.....at least those are my thoughts.
This window of opportunity for the 1/2 ton diesel was in my opinion from around 1998ish-2008 when the diesel truck craze was in full force, the 12 valve cummins and 24 valves were proving to make huge horsepower and really good mileage, GM announced the duramax which was a huge improvement over the 6.5, ford had the 7.3 dialed and introduced the super duty, and everyone was thinking man, a little brother to these motors in a half ton and we could see 30 mpg, still haul a solid half ton truck sized load, and puff black smoke all over.......

I'd be curious to see what diesel sales look like in the 3/4 and 1 ton truck market now that DPF and urea and all that other stuff is standard complicating and choking out engines. Maybe its not as bad as we think since the aftermarket still can do DPF deletes and the like.....but at the cost of your warranty on a 6-8k upgraded motor.....
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #22
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The Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 3.0L V6 Diesel MPG is projected at 20 city and 28 highway for the 4x4 model. I would expect the Ram to come in around 18 city and 26 highway, hopefully. With 220ish HP and 420ish ft-lbs. of torque, that's pretty sweet.

The downside is that for the GC, it's a $4,500 option. If it's the same for Ram, comparing the fuel mileage savings to the Hemi (14/20), it would take approximately 7.5 years to make up the difference (15,000 miles a year, fuel @ $3.50 a gallon, highway mileage used).

It's kind of like the Volt. Awesome concept, but the cost isn't there yet. Hopefully if the 3.0L makes it into other platforms, (Wrangler is a likely target) the cost will go down.

As far as the transmissions, we're using the same suppliers as other OEMs out there. ZF, Aisin, etc.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:40 AM   #23
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I for one have been waiting for a 1/2 ton diesel truck. I like the ride of my half ton and only pull a trailer occasionally. I can not justify spending $50,000+ on a new 3/4 ton diesel. If they offer this in their current Express model (to keep cost down) I may have to really consider it.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:43 AM   #24
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The Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 3.0L V6 Diesel MPG is projected at 20 city and 28 highway for the 4x4 model. I would expect the Ram to come in around 18 city and 26 highway, hopefully. With 220ish HP and 420ish ft-lbs. of torque, that's pretty sweet.

The downside is that for the GC, it's a $4,500 option. If it's the same for Ram, comparing the fuel mileage savings to the Hemi (14/20), it would take approximately 7.5 years to make up the difference (15,000 miles a year, fuel @ $3.50 a gallon, highway mileage used).

It's kind of like the Volt. Awesome concept, but the cost isn't there yet. Hopefully if the 3.0L makes it into other platforms, (Wrangler is a likely target) the cost will go down.

As far as the transmissions, we're using the same suppliers as other OEMs out there. ZF, Aisin, etc.
Those who use their truck to haul will just get the hemi or a 3/4 ton. Those who use their truck to have a truck can get 25 mpg according to the commercials with the V6 offering.

I just can't see it being a big enough advantage anywhere to justify the cost and complexity you are adding to your truck.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:44 AM   #25
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I for one have been waiting for a 1/2 ton diesel truck. I like the ride of my half ton and only pull a trailer occasionally. I can not justify spending $50,000+ on a new 3/4 ton diesel. If they offer this in their current Express model (to keep cost down) I may have to really consider it.
Didn't think about cost comparison to a 3/4 ton. I don't think tow ratings for the half ton will change much just because of the diesel addition. Fuel mileage while towing would be better than the Hemi and the cost of the truck would obviously be less than that of the 3/4 ton Cummins. The 3.0L Diesel in a half ton would also have better mileage than the Cummins.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:47 AM   #26
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I for one have been waiting for a 1/2 ton diesel truck. I like the ride of my half ton and only pull a trailer occasionally. I can not justify spending $50,000+ on a new 3/4 ton diesel. If they offer this in their current Express model (to keep cost down) I may have to really consider it.
If I recall they are only offering the diesel in the high end models of the Grand Cherokee right? So why would the 1/2 ton truck be any different?

I could be wrong.

But if that was the case, a 35-40k 1/2 ton, add diesel = damn near a diesel 3/4 ton truck.

If they do offer the diesel in lower end trim levels than that changes things from that front, somewhat.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:47 AM   #27
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Those who use their truck to haul will just get the hemi or a 3/4 ton. Those who use their truck to have a truck can get 25 mpg according to the commercials with the V6 offering.

I just can't see it being a big enough advantage anywhere to justify the cost and complexity you are adding to your truck.
I agree with you. BTW, the 25 MPG with the V6 is for a 4x2 only.

Look at the market though. Morons buy "green" car models, hybrids, etc. to save money on gas but taking a macro view they aren't saving money at all. A lot of people will say, "a half ton diesel? Badass! I'm going to buy one!" and not really care about the details.

If there is anything that holds true in this world when it comes to people buying things (especially cars), wants always seem to outweigh the needs/cost when it comes to the general population.

Hell, I don't buy new cars because I'd rather buy 1-2 year old used ones and save the money. I often wonder who are all these people buying and affording all of these milions of new models every year, especially if you compare that to the average household income. Frightening....and I'm really starting to get off topic here. Time to ease off the coffee....
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #28
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Didn't think about cost comparison to a 3/4 ton. I don't think tow ratings for the half ton will change much just because of the diesel addition. Fuel mileage while towing would be better than the Hemi and the cost of the truck would obviously be less than that of the 3/4 ton Cummins. The 3.0L Diesel in a half ton would also have better mileage than the Cummins.
How do you figure?

The mileage in my 7.3 dropped to nearly 12 mpg with just one jeep behind it, and typically down to 10mpg with most loads.

My half ton 5.3 silverado's have all averaged 8-12 towing.

I don't hear about too many people who get more than 12 towing anything, gas or diesel. Most trucks with a load behind them (say towing jeeps) are usually right around that 8-12 mpg mark. Gas or Diesel.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:52 AM   #29
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I agree with you. BTW, the 25 MPG with the V6 is for a 4x2 only.

Look at the market though. Morons buy "green" car models, hybrids, etc. to save money on gas but taking a macro view they aren't saving money at all. A lot of people will say, "a half ton diesel? Badass! I'm going to buy one!" and not really care about the details.

If there is anything that holds true in this world when it comes to people buying things (especially cars), wants always seem to outweigh the needs/cost when it comes to the general population.

Hell, I don't buy new cars because I'd rather buy 1-2 year old used ones and save the money. I often wonder who are all these people buying and affording all of these milions of new models every year, especially if you compare that to the average household income. Frightening....and I'm really starting to get off topic here. Time to ease off the coffee....
I agree with you on this as well.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #30
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How do you figure?

The mileage in my 7.3 dropped to nearly 12 mpg with just one jeep behind it, and typically down to 10mpg with most loads.

My half ton 5.3 silverado's have all averaged 8-12 towing.

I don't hear about too many people who get more than 12 towing anything, gas or diesel. Most trucks with a load behind them (say towing jeeps) are usually right around that 8-12 mpg mark. Gas or Diesel.
Towed a TJ up to snowfari and I got about 14mpg with my duramax and I was doing about 78mph. This was hand calculated and the truck was sitting idle for about a total of 1.5 hours during the entire trip.

I do like the idea of a Diesel half ton. It would be a few years but I would probably be in that market.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 08:59 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
This thread just happened with the cruze.

I think there were a LOT of people who would have jumped all over this idea.........
  • When diesel was cheaper than unleaded
  • when diesels were able to get better mileage with out being emissions choked
  • if the diesel was offered at a reasonable upgrade price
  • when oil wasn't priced through the moon so the oil changes didn't kill you
  • when diesels were fairly simple and reasonable to repair
  • when gas engines couldn't make reasonable torque/hp for towing
  • before the eco boost
  • when 1/2 tons got worse mileage than 3/4 diesels

A diesel 1/2 ton with todays emissions bullshit, in my eyes, just isn't going to make enough power and get enough mpg's to make people all giddy to pay the extra cost. Add in the fact that power isn't your limiting factor in towing with a half ton truck and there you have it.....at least those are my thoughts.
You are a pretty smart guy.


The hay day for diesels has come and gone in this country.

There is just no justification for a $6-8k price adder, to spend 25% more on fuel, 200% more on maintenance costs, just to get a few MPG more for the grand majority of consumers. Even with the new gas motors there isn't a ton of reason to have a diesel unless you are towing big boy stuff a lot of miles.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:10 AM   #32
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Towed a TJ up to snowfari and I got about 14mpg with my duramax and I was doing about 78mph. This was hand calculated and the truck was sitting idle for about a total of 1.5 hours during the entire trip.

I do like the idea of a Diesel half ton. It would be a few years but I would probably be in that market.
I have a very hard time believing this. Very. Especially at 78 mph.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:15 AM   #33
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Look at the market though. Morons buy "green" car models, hybrids, etc. to save money on gas but taking a macro view they aren't saving money at all. A lot of people will say, "a half ton diesel? Badass! I'm going to buy one....used....10 years from now!" and not really care about the details.
Fixed that for ya...

I don't think the opinions around this place are really what any manufacturer should be looking at. There seem to be a lot of wants and desires, but the reality ends up being that most tow rigs on this site are 5+ years old and the same goes for the rigs as well.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:15 AM   #34
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If I recall they are only offering the diesel in the high end models of the Grand Cherokee right? So why would the 1/2 ton truck be any different?

I could be wrong.

But if that was the case, a 35-40k 1/2 ton, add diesel = damn near a diesel 3/4 ton truck.

If they do offer the diesel in lower end trim levels than that changes things from that front, somewhat.
True, but a truck market is totally different than the SUV market. I am looking more for the every day use of this truck. It would ride better, get better MPG, better resale, last longer, and still have a lot of pulling power. I don't own some crazy huge trailer, camper, or 5th wheel. I pull a trailer with a Jeep maybe 10 times a year. Like I said I can't justify a 3/4 ton truck. Now if I could get into a 1/2 ton diesel crew cab under $40,000 then it makes more sense.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:21 AM   #35
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I have a very hard time believing this. Very. Especially at 78 mph.
It was on a brand new super light aluminum trailer and its not on one tons or crazy axles so it doesnt weigh that much. The exhaust and the tune on my truck help a lot.

I still have the fuel reciept, I went 305 miles on 21.2 gallons of diesel.

Not trying to argue just sayin!
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:28 AM   #36
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It is going to be a 4cyl cummins. My brother works at the world HQ, just left new truck development. He has been talking about this for a year or two. He was working on the CNG fleet trucks before

I am seriously considering getting one. If you put a 4cyl turbo diesel with the ram's new air suspension and its 4 link rear, I just dunno how you can go wrong. Would be nice to see a manual transmission with this
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:35 AM   #37
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True, but a truck market is totally different than the SUV market. I am looking more for the every day use of this truck. It would ride better, get better MPG, better resale, last longer, and still have a lot of pulling power. I don't own some crazy huge trailer, camper, or 5th wheel. I pull a trailer with a Jeep maybe 10 times a year. Like I said I can't justify a 3/4 ton truck. Now if I could get into a 1/2 ton diesel crew cab under $40,000 then it makes more sense.
Nothing you said there makes sense TO ME for owning a diesel.

The ONLY reason we own a diesel truck is because we have a truck bed camper in addition to the Jeep. I have dreams of being able to take both with us. I suppose the other reason is it's Kerry's truck and well...yeah...pick your battles.

The whole getting better MPG thing really doesn't set well with me when it comes to the diesel market. MPG with a diesel is marginal, negligible, and even negative when you factor in higher priced fuel, higher priced maintenance, $6-8k price adder.

So yeah it feels better at the pump but your ass stings every time you cut that monthly check, do an oil change, fuel filter change, or air filter change.

However even the savings right a the pump is pretty sketchy too because, and a lot of people that down own diesels don't realize this, diesel is typically at least 50 cents more per gallon. Recently I've seen it as high as $.75-$1.00 more than gas. So that means your 20 mpg pick up needs to get at a bare minimum 23 mpg to just break even on fuel alone.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:37 AM   #38
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True, but a truck market is totally different than the SUV market. I am looking more for the every day use of this truck. It would ride better, get better MPG, better resale, last longer, and still have a lot of pulling power. I don't own some crazy huge trailer, camper, or 5th wheel. I pull a trailer with a Jeep maybe 10 times a year. Like I said I can't justify a 3/4 ton truck. Now if I could get into a 1/2 ton diesel crew cab under $40,000 then it makes more sense.
Why in the world do people say and or think this? It simply isn't true.

You pay how much more for a diesel truck now? How much more do you really think they are worth at re-sale? I could provide a million examples for you, but that's just a waste of time. A used diesel truck cost more than a used gas truck, but the RESALE is not better, you still lost approximately the same percentage of value when you compare it to new.

How does a diesel last longer? You still have the same ball joints, axles, u joiints, rusted out michigan salted body, rusted out fuel lines, bad transmissions, etc. They don't last any longer, unless you want to keep the engine forever and nickle and dime yourself on chassis parts, even then rebuilding/swapping a gas engine into the same worn out chassis would still be cheaper than the 6-8k premium you paid years ago to have the diesel engine.

Todays simple small block gas motors will last forever. I'd take my 2001 silverado with a 5.3 and 185,000 miles on it ANY DAY over my 2000 F350 that I traded in with 215,000 miles on it.

I don't own either truck anymore, but the diesel had a lot more issues than the gas truck did (oil leaks, fuel leaks, turbo was nearing replacement time, not to mention all of the electrical issues)

If you only tow 10 times a year you could survive with an old school 4.3 liter chevy v6.

The cost savings of a standard gas half ton to a diesel half ton for 10 towing trips a year doesn't even compute.

If you tow daily, plow daily, and work your truck daily a diesel makes sense. If you don't, they're stupid.

Even if owning one and having that feeling of freight train torque is cool as fukc .

Last edited by kickstand; February 14th, 2013 at 09:41 AM.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:42 AM   #39
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It was on a brand new super light aluminum trailer and its not on one tons or crazy axles so it doesnt weigh that much. The exhaust and the tune on my truck help a lot.

I still have the fuel reciept, I went 305 miles on 21.2 gallons of diesel.

Not trying to argue just sayin!
I towed a grand cherokee at 65 mph and got 12 mpg. If you told me you were going 65 I might believe you, in fact I would, but at 78, I am not buying.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 09:54 AM   #40
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Is no one as excited as I am to see more 1/2 ton trucks with stacks?
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