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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:23 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
I see where you are going with this but in reality the difference is that "Cars' are not in the second amendment. You do not have the right to drive, its a privlege. However the second amendment says I have the right to bear arms;

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
The other side of that argument is that cars are primarily meant for transportation, while a guns sole purpose is to shoot something.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:24 AM   #22
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I would have to say to curtail gun crimes one would need stiffer penalties for such violent crimes. Self defense and accidents exempt, I would have no problem having mandatory death penaltys for anyone who uses a gun in an act of murder and then bury them in an ummarked grave so as not to create a "celebrity" status. With anything, the greater the responsibility, the greater the price of failure. Europe does this and it works well enough it seems. Let people have/do what ever they want but if they make a gross error and kill someone, throw the book at them.
Suicidal maniacs don't worry about death penalties.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:36 AM   #23
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The other side of that argument is that cars are primarily meant for transportation, while a guns sole purpose is to shoot something.

The right for transportation must be in the Amendment with the right for medical coverage.

I just missed it, apparently.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:40 AM   #24
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I think ice t explained it best when he pointed out when guns are gone, people looking to kill masess will find other means.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
I see where you are going with this but in reality the difference is that "Cars' are not in the second amendment. You do not have the right to drive, its a privlege. However the second amendment says I have the right to bear arms;

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Thats all well and good. In no way shape or form am I suggesting the government take those rights away, i'm simply suggesting harsher penalties for gun owners to face when their gun is used illegally or unsafely (ie if you carelessly allow your gun to get stolen and a theif robs a bank with it you should be held responsible in some fashion for carelssly storing your gun).

I am suggesting also that those who exercise their right to own a gun, which is a tool that is capable of great damage and the taking of lives, be encouraged since they should have nothing to hide, to register that gun, and take some "REASONABLE" amount of gun safety, refresher, etc certifications similar to that of a cpl or concealed or whatever you want to call it course on a semi regular basis.

We don't allow people to fly planes, drive cars, or even operate boats without some sort of license. Why is it so hard to keep the ability to own whatever gun we want, but be able to prove we have the mental capacity and level headedness to own and operate it safely?



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Yes, I would agree with that. Specifically I don't want see a bunch of gun bans put into effect. Most of these crazies involved in these mass shootings get their guns illegally or because someone was careless with their gun storage. Those intent on killing people will find another way to do it without a gun.
This is the part that I think needs to be targeted more BEFORE taking away rights.

An owner of a gun needs to be held responsible for what it is used for.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:00 PM   #26
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Thats all well and good. In no way shape or form am I suggesting the government take those rights away, i'm simply suggesting harsher penalties for gun owners to face when their gun is used illegally or unsafely (ie if you carelessly allow your gun to get stolen and a theif robs a bank with it you should be held responsible in some fashion for carelssly storing your gun).

I am suggesting also that those who exercise their right to own a gun, which is a tool that is capable of great damage and the taking of lives, be encouraged since they should have nothing to hide, to register that gun, and take some "REASONABLE" amount of gun safety, refresher, etc certifications similar to that of a cpl or concealed or whatever you want to call it course on a semi regular basis.

We don't allow people to fly planes, drive cars, or even operate boats without some sort of license. Why is it so hard to keep the ability to own whatever gun we want, but be able to prove we have the mental capacity and level headedness to own and operate it safely?



This is the part that I think needs to be targeted more BEFORE taking away rights.

An owner of a gun needs to be held responsible for what it is used for.

After dealing with the So Called Professionals in both of these fields....I don't consider them qualified to judge the rational of the public, nor are they the best teachers. I would much prefer to learn gun safety and maintenance from a retired Service man or someone who has spent his life hunting for food, then someone who spent 7 years at UofM learning theory.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:16 PM   #27
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Suicidal maniacs don't worry about death penalties.
That they don't. I don't think anything we can ever do will stop the crazies. But like the other people are saying in this thread, more responsibility on us gun toting folk would not hurt. 99% of all of us do the right things with our weapons so it really doesn't affect us. Its the criminals that we are after. We know they won't follow the laws so like I said before, throw the book at them amd eliminate them from our population. If we can't rely on morals to reduce crime, then we can rely on firing squads to do that for us.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:29 PM   #28
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I am not in favor of registration in any form. I am a United States Citizen who has first, a God given right to protect myself and my family, and secondly a constitutional right to own a gun. There is nothing in the constitution that says I have to admit to owning it. IMO, the less someone knows what I own, the closer I am to being able to effectively protect my family and exercize my right to protect myself from an enemy here or abroad. Once someone knows what I own, they have the ability (whether legally or not) to know when they have confiscated all of my weapons. Simply put, I don't like that.

Our society is based upon "innocent until proven guilty". Although it has pros and cons, it "IS" our culture and legal right. Not a privelidge like driving a car,........... but a right. I see that as a huge difference.

I don't buy into the "why is it a problem if you have nothing to hide" arguement. Rather, I feel it is my right to say "why is it a problem with what I own when I have done nothing wrong?".
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:44 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
The right for transportation must be in the Amendment with the right for medical coverage.

I just missed it, apparently.
I guess so. I'll help you out:

Ninth Amendment The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:44 PM   #30
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I am not in favor of registration in any form. I am a United States Citizen who has first, a God given right to protect myself and my family, and secondly a constitutional right to own a gun. There is nothing in the constitution that says I have to admit to owning it. IMO, the less someone knows what I own, the closer I am to being able to effectively protect my family and exercize my right to protect myself from an enemy here or abroad. Once someone knows what I own, they have the ability (whether legally or not) to know when they have confiscated all of my weapons. Simply put, I don't like that.

Our society is based upon "innocent until proven guilty". Although it has pros and cons, it "IS" our culture and legal right. Not a privelidge like driving a car,........... but a right. I see that as a huge difference.

I don't buy into the "why is it a problem if you have nothing to hide" arguement. Rather, I feel it is my right to say "why is it a problem with what I own when I have done nothing wrong?".
So how do you feel about the shootings that took place in CT? How do you feel about the fact that someone who legally owned firearms lived with a psycho and her guns were accessible enough to be used to kill school aged children that are the same age as my own children?

How would you feel if that psycho made his way into your place of employment and shot you up before you had time to defend yourself? (Oh, that's right, you carry so you'd be able to wild west shoot him up before he ever got to you right?)

Yeah, you're right, everyone should be able to buy whatever they want and it should be no matter if they proved they were competent to own the gun, or drive the car, or anything else it should just be a free for all right?

News flash, you may have been born when the constitution was written, but if you haven't noticed things have changed a bit. Adaptations of our rights isn't a terrible thing as long as they are not being taken away.

There is no reason to take our rights away, but if someone gets his hands on your guns because you aren't being a responsible gun owner by all fucking means that should be trackable and you should be responsible for it.

This kind of attitude in my opinion is what is wrong with this country and its extremism of the two parties recently and why nothing can be accomplished.

Your thought is its my right and I'm not changing even if we have a criminal problem with guns.
The lefts thought is take all guns away.

How about the left says we'll let you keep any and all guns you want to buy if you allow some regulation, and the right says, hey, we'll make you a deal, we'll increase the regulations on guns, but we still get to buy whatever we want so long as we do a better job of making sure those guns don't get into the wrong hands, and if they do we will increase the penalties for the guns owner so people act more responsibly with their guns and how they store them when they are not around......wow look we comprimised and no one lost any rights, we enhanced everyones safety from psycho's, and we all still get to buy whatever guns we want.

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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:46 PM   #31
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That they don't. I don't think anything we can ever do will stop the crazies. But like the other people are saying in this thread, more responsibility on us gun toting folk would not hurt. 99% of all of us do the right things with our weapons so it really doesn't affect us. Its the criminals that we are after. We know they won't follow the laws so like I said before, throw the book at them amd eliminate them from our population. If we can't rely on morals to reduce crime, then we can rely on firing squads to do that for us.
Bingo.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:47 PM   #32
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I guess so. I'll help you out:

Ninth Amendment The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

What does this have to do with transportation? I do not see "anything" in there about Federal scrutiny or control....................State control, yes.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:50 PM   #33
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So how do you feel about the shootings that took place in CT? How do you feel about the fact that someone who legally owned firearms lived with a psycho and her guns were accessible enough to be used to kill school aged children that are the same age as my own children?

How would you feel if that psycho made his way into your place of employment and shot you up before you had time to defend yourself? (Oh, that's right, you carry so you'd be able to wild west shoot him up before he ever got to you right?)

Yeah, you're right, everyone should be able to buy whatever they want and it should be no matter if they proved they were competent to own the gun, or drive the car, or anything else it should just be a free for all right?

News flash, you may have been born when the constitution was written, but if you haven't noticed things have changed a bit. Adaptations of our rights isn't a terrible thing as long as they are not being taken away.

There is no reason to take our rights away, but if someone gets his hands on your guns because you aren't being a responsible gun owner by all fucking means that should be trackable and you should be responsible for it.

Would this not then in your understanding be equal to someone steeling your Truck and randomly running over people on the sidewalk. Should you be held accountable for their actions.

I understand your passion Chad, I really do. We just need to focus on the people who can not play nice, not the ones who do.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:55 PM   #34
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Would this not then in your understanding be equal to someone steeling your Truck and randomly running over people on the sidewalk. Should you be held accountable for their actions.

I understand your passion Chad, I really do. We just need to focus on the people who can not play nice, not the ones who do.
To some extent, yes, I should be held responsible. I should think twice about parking in a shitty part of town, I shouldn't just think oh my insurance will cover it, then again, I have insurance for that. So I am covering my ass.

Just like someone would think twice about not having their guns safely stored in a case that only they can access.....

Unfortunately life doesn't make rules for the good kids, it makes rules for the bad apples, we all have known that since we were younger, one bad apple has always ruined it for the rest of us. Now we need to make those consequences strong enough that the bad apple (the good gun owner who isn't smart enough to lock his guns up) swift enough that he thinks twice about owning the gun or storing it improperly, if he knows big brother will track that unlocked gun back to him, put him in jail for 10 years, because he was dumb enough to get it stolen, or loaned to the wrong person, or whatever, maybe we'll lower the number of guns that end up in the wrong hands?

Laws will not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but maybe just maybe if enough responsible gun owners start to stand up for their rights and are held accountable for their guns, we can keep a few extra guns out of the hands of criminals?

Do we care if two deadbeat thugs have stolen/illegal/unregistered guns and kill each other on the streets of Detroit/Flint/redneckville/LA/NY? Nope, not one damn bit.

Do we even care if those deadbeats break into some crack house to get his drug money, or settle the score or whatever where some crack whore has 10 kids with 8 different dads and shoots the place up knocking off a kid or two in the crossfire? Not so much, at least I don't, they're inner city useless fucks who's parents put them in harms way.

On the flipside, do I care if some psycho kid grabs his fathers legally owned firearm and columbine's the place up? Yeah, I do, nobody deserved it, there was just a senseless shooting of innocent people. Do I care if some psycho takes his mom's legally owned target/clay/sport shooting guns and shoots up an elementary school filled up with innocent teachers and students? Sure do. Do I care about some psycho kid shooting up the movie theatre and just randomly firing? Again, I sure do.

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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:59 PM   #35
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What does this have to do with transportation? I do not see "anything" in there about Federal scrutiny or control....................State control, yes.
Exactly. These amendments say that just because something like transportation isn't mentioned in the Constitution, doesn't mean that the people don't have the right to it.


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Ninth Amendment The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:04 PM   #36
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To some extent, yes, I should be held responsible. I should think twice about parking in a shitty part of town, I shouldn't just think oh my insurance will cover it, then again, I have insurance for that. So I am covering my ass.

Just like someone would think twice about not having their guns safely stored in a case that only they can access.....

Unfortunately life doesn't make rules for the good kids, it makes rules for the bad apples, we all have known that since we were younger, one bad apple has always ruined it for the rest of us. Now we need to make those consequences strong enough that the bad apple (the good gun owner who isn't smart enough to lock his guns up) swift enough that he thinks twice about owning the gun or storing it improperly, if he knows big brother will track that unlocked gun back to him, put him in jail for 10 years, because he was dumb enough to get it stolen, or loaned to the wrong person, or whatever, maybe we'll lower the number of guns that end up in the wrong hands?

Laws will not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but maybe just maybe if enough responsible gun owners start to stand up for their rights and are held accountable for their guns, we can keep a few extra guns out of the hands of criminals?

Do we care if two deadbeat thugs have stolen/illegal/unregistered guns and kill each other on the streets of Detroit/Flint/redneckville/LA/NY? Nope, not one damn bit.

Do we even care if those deadbeats break into some crack house to get his drug money, or settle the score or whatever where some crack whore has 10 kids with 8 different dads and shoots the place up knocking off a kid or two in the crossfire? Not so much, at least I don't, they're inner city useless fucks who's parents put them in harms way.

On the flipside, do I care if some psycho kid grabs his fathers legally owned firearm and columbine's the place up? Yeah, I do, nobody deserved it, there was just a senseless shooting of innocent people. Do I care if some psycho takes his mom's legally owned target/clay/sport shooting guns and shoots up an elementary school filled up with innocent teachers and students? Sure do. Do I care about some psycho kid shooting up the movie theatre and just randomly firing? Again, I sure do.
I'm going to have to dissagree with you on this. We don't have to tolerate the bad ruining it for the good. I think we both want it gone, we are just trying to do it two different ways. We have laws in place, lets use them.
I promise you, if someone comes into my house to steal my gun they wont leave with the gun.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:09 PM   #37
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Exactly. These amendments say that just because something like transportation isn't mentioned in the Constitution, doesn't mean that the people don't have the right to it.

But I don't see "The People" initiating the new laws. I see the Feds and the Media doing it.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:57 PM   #38
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I'll reply with happy colors.

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So how do you feel about the shootings that took place in CT?It's terrible, no other way to say it. How do you feel about the fact that someone who legally owned firearms lived with a psycho and her guns were accessible enough to be used to kill school aged children that are the same age as my own children?That's a tough call. Obviously, he knew where she kept her guns. Were they locked? Did he have the combo? I don't know. What I do know is that the guns were not his, they were stolen. Regardless of who owned them, they were stolen.

How would you feel if that psycho made his way into your place of employment and shot you up before you had time to defend yourself? (Oh, that's right, you carry so you'd be able to wild west shoot him up before he ever got to you right?)"]We all take a risk fo some physco going nuts. But, if it were to happen, I would rather "someone" at our place of employment be armed rather than all of us being totally vulnerable

Yeah, you're right, everyone should be able to buy whatever they want and it should be no matter if they proved they were competent to own the gun, or drive the car, or anything else it should just be a free for all right? Right to own the gun? In most cases, people have to pass a background check right now. IMO, protecting my family is one of the most important roles I have as a father/ head of household.

News flash, you may have been born when the constitution was written, sorry, not that far back [/COLOR]but if you haven't noticed things have changed a bit. [COLOR="rgb(221, 160, 221)"]No, I don't think they have. We had tragedies and mass murders long before either of us was born. Do you know that the biggest mass murder in Michigan was not with a gun? It was with a bomb back in the 1920's. So, no, things have not changed all that much. Rather, there is more media attention and quite frankly, more of us.[/COLOR] Adaptations of our rights isn't a terrible thing as long as they are not being taken away.correct[/COLOR]

There is no reason to take our rights away, but if someone gets his hands on your guns because you aren't being a responsible gun owner by all fucking means that should be trackable and you should be responsible for it.[COLOR="rgb(221, 160, 221)"]Nope, if they are stolen, they are stolen. Period. You take something from me without my permission, you are a low down thief. Don't blame someone else's wrong doing on me when they violated me.[/COLOR]

This kind of attitude in my opinion is what is wrong with this country and its extremism of the two parties recently and why nothing can be accomplished. Maybe if we went back to spanking our kids and teaching them right from wrong instead of hugging them and saying "it's OK Johnny, you are a good boy", things would not be so bad.

Your thought is its my right and I'm not changing even if we have a criminal problem with guns.
The lefts thought is take all guns away.

How about the left says we'll let you keep any and all guns you want to buy if you allow some regulation, and the right says, hey, we'll make you a deal, we'll increase the regulations on guns, but we still get to buy whatever we want so long as we do a better job of making sure those guns don't get into the wrong hands, and if they do we will increase the penalties for the guns owner so people act more responsibly with their guns and how they store them when they are not around Nope, I don't agree. I will not take responsibility for a thief.......wow look we comprimised and no one lost any rights, we enhanced everyones safety from psycho's, and we all still get to buy whatever guns we want.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 01:58 PM   #39
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I'll reply with happy colors.
you suck at colors
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 02:01 PM   #40
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