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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #1
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Default So can we start taxing christian churches?

So what do you O'reilly lovers think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=n8gO-VTaOwU


And yes I realize he has already recanted but WTF?
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Old December 4th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #2
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My Internet Sucks so I can't watch the video but Here's my initial Response to the question of the thread.


I think it would be a fine idea if it included every non-profit, not just Christian based ones. The problem is that the government would be putting an extra burden on alot of Charities (including most Christian Churches) that do a majority of the work to help the homeless and needy.

<rabbit Trail> I've said it a million times on here but, you walk into just about any church and there are posters for Missionaries, Local food drives, ways to get involved with shelters, ETC, In just about everyone you'll visit. That's because it's in the teachings of Jesus to help the poor and needy, so it would make sense that Christian churches would give thier members the ability to do so. In my experiences it usually has nothing to o with 'peddling' our faith, just letting people know they are loved.

I also think that this idea comes from the idea that churches are out to make money. That the pastors get every dime that is placed in the offering plate. That is just not the case and, in most cases, a pastor is paid extremely little for the amount of education they posses. Most pastors go to school for just as long as a doctor to be ordained but get paid, at the most, 60K a year. Are there exceptions? Of course, but if you go any joe blow church, there pastor is not rolling in it by any means. They aren't there to make money, they are there to effect people's lives by the Gospel.

To be completely honest, most of our church (both the one I attend and my dad's church when I was growing up) spends it's money on missions and Charity. After that it's probably building upkeep and paying the bills. </rabbit trail>

Anywho, to bring it back to the original post; I think by taking away the Tax exempt status (what ever grade that may be) will hinder those non profits (and it HAS to be every single one, not Just Christian) and force those people that rely on those non profits to get that help from the Government. Taking away even more from our tax dollars.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:42 AM   #3
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Thinking you have the wrong idea.

O'reilly stated repeatedly that Christianity WAS NOT A RELIGION, but that it was a philosophy. He also stared Catholicism, Judaism, and I think one other were religions.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:52 AM   #4
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is it illegal to start a church, and run a business through there as a non profit?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:09 AM   #5
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Thinking you have the wrong idea.

O'reilly stated repeatedly that Christianity WAS NOT A RELIGION, but that it was a philosophy. He also stared Catholicism, Judaism, and I think one other were religions.
Wow, I just watched the Video. That was a mess.

But, my previous post was more towards what I think would happen if non-profits were denied the non-profit status.

I think Bill (and the atheist) were confused a bit. According to what O'reilly put out there, most churches would still fall under a religious institution because he said that the different Denominations where separate religions. Which is completely wrong. I think he was trying to say that the nativity scenes and such on government property could represent a philosophy that Christianity teaches.

Personally I would rather see our government celebrate all the major religions instead of censoring them. I think they problem with most Atheists is that they have no symbol they could put up at the court house because they have no unified purpose or reason for being. This makes them feel left out and then they complain. JMO.

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is it illegal to start a church, and run a business through there as a non profit?
To get any (and there are many types) of non-profit status you have to ad-hear to some pretty strict laws and guidelines. If you can run a Business with in those guidelines then yes. BUT if you're able to run that business within those guidelines you wouldn't need the church to run it through.

In all honesty churches are ran like a business that has a poor profit growth plan. They do have things they 'sell' (services, fellowship, etc) and they have overhead. The difference is that they choose to give that profit, and then some, away to those that need help or to a good cause.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #6
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I saw this the other day. Sometimes I wonder if Bill O'Reilly understands that he is being recorded...

Although, after watching the clip, I didn't make me think, "ahh, now churches should be taxed."

I do however have an opinion on that idea, however. I think that in our country there are churches that are doing good in terms of charity and some that are not (some megachurches come to mind). I think to keep their tax exempt status, a church, should be required to be transparent about where the money comes from and where the money goes.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #7
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I saw this the other day. Sometimes I wonder if Bill O'Reilly understands that he is being recorded...

Although, after watching the clip, I didn't make me think, "ahh, now churches should be taxed."

I do however have an opinion on that idea, however. I think that in our country there are churches that are doing good in terms of charity and some that are not (some megachurches come to mind). I think to keep their tax exempt status, a church, should be required to be transparent about where the money comes from and where the money goes.
Holy crap, I agree with you. On that last part. Our Church is open about the budget and our whole entire 'society' (or the members) votes on it every year. While being open about where the money goes is a good idea there are legal issues with being COMPLETELY open. The only person in our congregation that is allowed to know the amount of money coming from individuals is the treasurer. Not even the pastor is allowed to know. they can know how much was in the offering plate, but not specifics. Heck, not long ago most churches had boards up on the front of the church telling the attendance and offering amounts for last Sunday.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #8
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It should be transparent. Some mega churches rake in a ton of cash. I saw a news clip where a woman embezzled a million dollars from a church over three years. The pastor suspected something was slightly off. If missing 330K per year doesn't hit home hard, you know the church is raking in cash.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #9
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Fun fact: The organizations who run college football bowl games are run as non-profits, and they make crazy money. It's all how you navigate the laws.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TJJEEP View Post
It should be transparent. Some mega churches rake in a ton of cash. I saw a news clip where a woman embezzled a million dollars from a church over three years. The pastor suspected something was slightly off. If missing 330K per year doesn't hit home hard, you know the church is raking in cash.
Being transparent shows the public that they have nothing to hide. I think that this government should do the same. We have zero transparency there which makes me think they are hiding something.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #11
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I think they problem with most Atheists is that they have no symbol they could put up at the court house because they have no unified purpose or reason for being. This makes them feel left out and then they complain. JMO.


I am not going to pretend that I speak for all Atheists, but in my particular case you couldn't be further from the truth.

As a part of the human race, I can feel empathy for other human beings because as sentient beings we know that certain experiences are universal amongst thinking life forms. For example, I know that someone who has lost a family member feels grief, and I can sympathize. Note that I can sympathize with a loss without any reference to a supreme being, just a knowledge that all living things will die, and those that were close will miss them.

I do not feel 'left out', as that implies that I would want to be included in a religion, but was not allowed to. I do know that is not how religions work, all are welcome if they accept that religion's deity as the One True God.

Like I've said before, the difference between atheists and the religious is atheists don't care if you are religious, we'll accept you as you are.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #12
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I am not going to pretend that I speak for all Atheists, but in my particular case you couldn't be further from the truth.

As a part of the human race, I can feel empathy for other human beings because as sentient beings we know that certain experiences are universal amongst thinking life forms. For example, I know that someone who has lost a family member feels grief, and I can sympathize. Note that I can sympathize with a loss without any reference to a supreme being, just a knowledge that all living things will die, and those that were close will miss them.

I do not feel 'left out', as that implies that I would want to be included in a religion, but was not allowed to. I do know that is not how religions work, all are welcome if they accept that religion's deity as the One True God.

Like I've said before, the difference between atheists and the religious is atheists don't care if you are religious, we'll accept you as you are.

Well I stand Corrected.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #13
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It should be transparent. Some mega churches rake in a ton of cash. I saw a news clip where a woman embezzled a million dollars from a church over three years. The pastor suspected something was slightly off. If missing 330K per year doesn't hit home hard, you know the church is raking in cash.
There are always exceptions. There's no doubt that churches have the potential to rake in a ton of money. It's what they do with that money that is the important part. Transparency would be great for churches because people (that aren't involved in the church) may finally understand where all the money goes.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #14
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Wonder how much of that was for ratings.

My favorite holiday is and will probably always be Halloween. Why, because it is one of the few pure holidays left. It is also the only time of the year I put out decorations also.

It is for the kids, simple and pure. You can look into the old school side of that but I fail to see what a kid in a spider man costume has to do with old school beliefs.

I am one of those people that give out handfuls to the kids. The younger they are the more they get (to discourage older kids). I don't care about what your wearing it is all about having fun and the community coming together.

This time of they year people are on edge and stressed because of the expectations of others. While it is fun to watch the lemmings and wonder I do respect them.

On taxing the church. There are very few instances where I agree with this. I am one that thinks that everyone should pull there weight but truly a church tends to help the community around it. That all being said I would rather give money to a homeless shelter, family in need, or organization that I felt will properly use the funds then one that will use it towards building improvements. I do think that they should pay property taxes. This would eliminate those mega churches and place more of those funds back into the community.

My family does not take the Holidays off. We celebrate it on the 18th(a week before) or on the Saturday before. It is easier on everyone that has to work and is also a lot easier on those that are traveling. The understanding is still there just not the hustle and it needs to be done and you need to do this by this time which ruins the underlying meaning.

I have my beliefs not others. My guy could kick yours guys butt is a old debate with no winning side. Watching these two go at it was quite comical. I kept wondering who was going to get Bich slapped first.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #15
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Fun fact: The organizations who run college football bowl games are run as non-profits, and they make crazy money. It's all how you navigate the laws.
I think the terms "profit" and "non-profit" with respect to corporations it a bit of a misnomer. There are plenty of "for profit" corporations that do not make money, and there are plenty of "non-profit" corporations that make money. It's not about if they made money or not, it's what they do with the money that matters.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:00 PM   #16
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Just watched the video... WOW. I thought Bill O'Reilly was kind of an idiot. I was wrong. He's a full fledged low grade moron. Do people actually take this guy seriously?

And I don't want atheism shoved down my throat any more that any other "philosophy". I'm pretty sure most people are fine with having December 25th off and not being able to go to the bank or get mail that day, even if they aren't Christian or don't celebrate Christmas. I don't want to be forced to work that day just to accommodate him.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #17
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Just watched the video... WOW. I thought Bill O'Reilly was kind of an idiot. I was wrong. He's a full fledged low grade moron. Do people actually take this guy seriously?

And I don't want atheism shoved down my throat any more that any other "philosophy". I'm pretty sure most people are fine with having December 25th off and not being able to go to the bank or get mail that day, even if they aren't Christian or don't celebrate Christmas. I don't want to be forced to work that day just to accommodate him.
FYI- That douche doesn't speak for all atheists any more than I do.

I believe the proper term for people like him is 'attention whore'.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 09:39 PM   #18
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Just to be clear, I don't advocate to work on Dec. 25th, either.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 12:13 PM   #19
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is it illegal to start a church, and run a business through there as a non profit?
the business "as a non profit" would in nature not be profitable so I guess I fail to understand the point.

Churches and other non-profits are not exempt from filing financial statements just because they are exempt from income, ad. valorem property taxes, sales and use taxes, etc.

Now, if you're talking about committing fraud by hiding a for-profit's business transactions underneath an umbrella of a religiously exempt organization. then yes, fraud is still illegal even if coated with a religious name over top of it...


If on the other hand, you are talking about as but an example, the Jewish Cultural Center in West Bloomfield Township, which is in fact largely a religiously exempt entitiy, it does have tenants in place that are not-exempt. Just like your local school or university may contract out janitorial and/or food services to a private sector, for profit, non-exempt business like Chartwells
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Old December 7th, 2012, 12:27 PM   #20
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the business "as a non profit" would in nature not be profitable so I guess I fail to understand the point.

Churches and other non-profits are not exempt from filing financial statements just because they are exempt from income, ad. valorem property taxes, sales and use taxes, etc.

Now, if you're talking about committing fraud by hiding a for-profit's business transactions underneath an umbrella of a religiously exempt organization. then yes, fraud is still illegal even if coated with a religious name over top of it...


If on the other hand, you are talking about as but an example, the Jewish Cultural Center in West Bloomfield Township, which is in fact largely a religiously exempt entitiy, it does have tenants in place that are not-exempt. Just like your local school or university may contract out janitorial and/or food services to a private sector, for profit, non-exempt business like Chartwells
The business may not be profitable but as CEO you could draw quite the salary!
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