Driving Question: Michigan Lefts - Page 5 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

The Pub A friendly forum where everybody is nice, and will answer any questions you have about life.

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 21st, 2012, 01:34 PM   #81
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,968
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Default

why do you care?
turn into your lane, carry on with your life.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old November 21st, 2012, 01:36 PM   #82
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
why do you care?
turn into your lane, carry on with your life.
Which lane is mine?

That's what I'm trying to find out so I can turn into my lane and carry on with my life.
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 01:58 PM   #83
tsaguy
drink the hotdog water.
 
tsaguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-17-08
Location: Big Mountain, Michigan 48458
Posts: 4,385
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

I can't find Michigan left in the law books.

To turn, please turn into the lane which correctly corresponds to the lane in which you are in before the turn has been completed. Then make your move into the desired lane by using legal methods. Continuing to argue makes you a queen. End thread. Thanks, and don't forget to tip your server.
tsaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:17 PM   #84
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,968
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Which lane is mine?

That's what I'm trying to find out so I can turn into my lane and carry on with my life.
Common sense would dictate if you are in the left lane of 2, then stay in the left most lane and carry on with your lane change after you have completed your turn if you desire a different lane. Pretty simple.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:18 PM   #85
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsaguy View Post
I can't find Michigan left in the law books.

To turn, please turn into the lane which correctly corresponds to the lane in which you are in before the turn has been completed. Then make your move into the desired lane by using legal methods. Continuing to argue makes you a queen. End thread. Thanks, and don't forget to tip your server.
Which lane correctly corresponds to the lane you're in?

I always tip.
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:21 PM   #86
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,968
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Which lane correctly corresponds to the lane you're in?

I always tip.
people as fucking stupid as you shouldn't be allowed to drive
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:28 PM   #87
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
people as fucking stupid as you shouldn't be allowed to drive
But I passed all my driver's tests. Haven't been in any accidents that were my fault either.

Please teach me correct Michigan left lane usage.


You people are too much fun to fukc with by keeping arguments like this going....
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:29 PM   #88
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Common sense would dictate if you are in the left lane of 2, then stay in the left most lane and carry on with your lane change after you have completed your turn if you desire a different lane. Pretty simple.
Isn't it just more efficient to go into the lane you want anyways? Why beat around the bush?

If two lanes feed into four, shouldn't one lane get two and the other lane get the remaining two? Why do the two lanes only get the first two lanes, and THEN get the next ones after already being in the one lane. If it's only one turn lane, there are two available lanes for you to turn in, so you obviously get the choice of both.
__________________

Last edited by GreaseMonkey; November 21st, 2012 at 02:33 PM.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:50 PM   #89
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,968
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post


You people are too much fun to fukc with by keeping arguments like this going....
You're not "fucking" with any of us, you're just arguing a stupid point like a douchebag.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 03:05 PM   #90
BlooMule
Jet powered
 
BlooMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: a mile from the shithole
Posts: 26,490
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Default

Nail the gas, drift the car full opposite lock across all the lanes.
__________________
-rw-rw-rw
BlooMule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 03:48 PM   #91
tsaguy
drink the hotdog water.
 
tsaguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-17-08
Location: Big Mountain, Michigan 48458
Posts: 4,385
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
But I passed all my driver's tests. Haven't been in any accidents that were my fault either.

Please teach me correct Michigan left lane usage.


You people are too much fun to fukc with by keeping arguments like this going....
Drama queen. You must be bored at work.
tsaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 04:26 PM   #92
Jiveturkey3
Senior Member
 
Jiveturkey3's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-22-12
Location: Hillsdale MI
Posts: 4,127
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlooMule View Post
Nail the gas, drift the car full opposite lock across all the lanes.
FTGDMFW!!!! Don't forget to yell 'Merica!
Jiveturkey3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 05:29 PM   #93
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
You're not "fucking" with any of us, you're just arguing a stupid point like a douchebag.
I've been "fucking" with you guys for the past couple pages now. I was hoping you would get involved because your sporadic STFU posts make me laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsaguy View Post
Drama queen. You must be bored at work.
Extremely.
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 07:04 PM   #94
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,968
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
I've been "fucking" with you guys for the past couple pages now. I was hoping you would get involved because your sporadic STFU posts make me laugh.



Extremely.
well, you aren't very good at fucking with people, you just look really stupid doing it.

sorry, no shut the fukc ups for you.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 09:12 PM   #95
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
well, you aren't very good at fucking with people, you just look really stupid doing it.

sorry, no shut the fukc ups for you.
That's the point. If it continues to look stupid, you keep posting to keep arguing with me.
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 09:15 PM   #96
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,968
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Default

Nice try, but no one is arguing with you, we're just telling you that you're dumb
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 11:05 PM   #97
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Nice try, but no one is arguing with you, we're just telling you that you're dumb
You just can't stop can you.
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #98
GreaseMonkey
Pew pew!
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 18,043
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

I will have to double check if there are any lane markings or signs at the intersection I frequent in regards to his response below.

In short, there is no legal requirement to turn into the left most lane, unless there are pavement markings and/or signs directing which lanes can be used. So someone on the outside of a Michigan left could turn to the leftmost lane if they want to.

Here is the response directly from MSP:

You sent an e-mail to the Michigan State Police (MSP) Webmaster asking, “Does that mean that lane A can turn into either lane 1 or 2, and lane B can turn into either 3 or 4? Or can lane A only turn into lane 1, and B can only turn into lane 2 and then change lanes into 3 and/or 4 after completing the turn into lane 2?” That question was forwarded to me.

Although I hate this, the answer is “it depends.” I’ll give you the long answer followed by a short answer.

Long answer: Under the Michigan Vehicle Code, right turns must be made into the right lane. This is clear from MCL 257.647(1)(a), which says, “Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.” It is not clear that left turns must be made into the left lane.

That statute says, “Approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line in a manner as not to interfere with the progress of any streetcar, and after entering the intersection the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of the roadway being entered.” So it is clear that a left turn must be made to the right of center, but nothing says that the vehicle must stay as far left as possible. MCL 257.647.

There are some variations in MCL 257.647(c) and (d) involving left turns and one-way roadways. I would argue that those do not apply here for two reasons. First, “Michigan left turns” do not involve one-way roads, they involve two-way roads with a median. Second, on a practical level, if there are two lanes turning left and both lanes follow these statutes then crashes will occur because both vehicles will be pulling into the same lane. So, in principle, either left turning lane is legally allowed to turn into either perpendicular lane of travel. This is allowed because the statute does not prohibit it. However, this should not be allowed in practice. Under the Michigan Vehicle Code, motorists must obey traffic control devices (MCL 257.611). This includes traffic signs, pavement markings, traffic lights, etc. When there are two lanes turning left onto two perpendicular lanes, there should be a traffic control device directing each vehicle to stay in its own lane. Ideally, there should be a sign and pavement markings. At the least, there should be lane markings. Short Answer: No law prohibits either left turning vehicle from turning into either perpendicular lane. But if there are signs or pavement markings then the drivers must obey them. And there should be signs or markings directing each vehicle to stay in its own lane.

You may view the appropriate statutes at http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-647 and http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-611.

Sgt. Mike

P.S -- Your question actually involved more lanes than my answer envisions. But the principles are still the same.

P.P.S. -- It is notable that the Michigan Vehicle Code was enacted in 1949. Even though it is routinely amended, many of its provisions are antiquated. This may be why the turning statutes seem to be outdated.

P.P.P.S -- This is one of those occasions where I wish my answer was different (i.e. I wish that the statute required left-turning vehicles to stay in their own lane). I would be interested in seeing a good counter-argument, if you have one.
__________________
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #99
homerdogeo8
booger eatin' moron
 
homerdogeo8's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-06-08
Location: St Johns
Posts: 2,329
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
I will have to double check if there are any lane markings or signs at the intersection I frequent in regards to his response below.

In short, there is no legal requirement to turn into the left most lane, unless there are pavement markings and/or signs directing which lanes can be used. So someone on the outside of a Michigan left could turn to the leftmost lane if they want to.

Here is the response directly from MSP:

You sent an e-mail to the Michigan State Police (MSP) Webmaster asking, “Does that mean that lane A can turn into either lane 1 or 2, and lane B can turn into either 3 or 4? Or can lane A only turn into lane 1, and B can only turn into lane 2 and then change lanes into 3 and/or 4 after completing the turn into lane 2?” That question was forwarded to me.

Although I hate this, the answer is “it depends.” I’ll give you the long answer followed by a short answer.

Long answer: Under the Michigan Vehicle Code, right turns must be made into the right lane. This is clear from MCL 257.647(1)(a), which says, “Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.” It is not clear that left turns must be made into the left lane.

That statute says, “Approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line in a manner as not to interfere with the progress of any streetcar, and after entering the intersection the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of the roadway being entered.” So it is clear that a left turn must be made to the right of center, but nothing says that the vehicle must stay as far left as possible. MCL 257.647.

There are some variations in MCL 257.647(c) and (d) involving left turns and one-way roadways. I would argue that those do not apply here for two reasons. First, “Michigan left turns” do not involve one-way roads, they involve two-way roads with a median. Second, on a practical level, if there are two lanes turning left and both lanes follow these statutes then crashes will occur because both vehicles will be pulling into the same lane. So, in principle, either left turning lane is legally allowed to turn into either perpendicular lane of travel. This is allowed because the statute does not prohibit it. However, this should not be allowed in practice. Under the Michigan Vehicle Code, motorists must obey traffic control devices (MCL 257.611). This includes traffic signs, pavement markings, traffic lights, etc. When there are two lanes turning left onto two perpendicular lanes, there should be a traffic control device directing each vehicle to stay in its own lane. Ideally, there should be a sign and pavement markings. At the least, there should be lane markings. Short Answer: No law prohibits either left turning vehicle from turning into either perpendicular lane. But if there are signs or pavement markings then the drivers must obey them. And there should be signs or markings directing each vehicle to stay in its own lane.

You may view the appropriate statutes at http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-647 and http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-611.

Sgt. Mike

P.S -- Your question actually involved more lanes than my answer envisions. But the principles are still the same.

P.P.S. -- It is notable that the Michigan Vehicle Code was enacted in 1949. Even though it is routinely amended, many of its provisions are antiquated. This may be why the turning statutes seem to be outdated.

P.P.P.S -- This is one of those occasions where I wish my answer was different (i.e. I wish that the statute required left-turning vehicles to stay in their own lane). I would be interested in seeing a good counter-argument, if you have one.
or in other words: If it's not marked you can take any lane you want to, which is what you did originally and driver no 2 threw a fit.
homerdogeo8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.33873 seconds with 79 queries