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Old November 8th, 2012, 10:42 AM   #81
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You realize that stagnant thinking will render your group irrelevant, right? If you truly care for the core lessons of Christianity (The Golden Rule, etc.) you will need to change with the times or your group will disappear. If you dwell on these small issues that impact you little to none, your prove that you don't truly care about the big picture of Christianity and are more out to control others and prove a point. Look at the big picture before Christianity is nothing more than a blurb in history books.
FYI, "the Golden Rule" is not Christian in origin.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 10:54 AM   #82
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WOW.

Every thread, no matter what the subject is 6 degrees to crazy around here.

Stupidity does not live with one party, or one religion or one ideal. Stupidity is an equal opportunity employer, it just loves finding those who are complacent.

Now, I'm going to try to bring this back around to the conversation I tried to start in my original post.

Let me clarify that I am a left leaning moderate, yet I am fiscally conservative. I'm God believing, college educated, and predominantly a Democrat in my voting habits. I very rarely vote a straight ticket however.

I am not happy with the extremes we have seen in our two-party system.

I want a party built on the twin imperatives of fiscal responsibility and social progressivism. Sadly, in it's current state, the GOP can no longer be that party any more than it could nominate their patron saint Ronald Reagan were he alive today.

Here's where it gets exciting for 2016.

The Republican party has an opportunity. Just hear me out:

I think the moderate, silent majority were blindsided, caught up in a game that unfortunately you could not get out of. You could not separate yourselves from social issues that many of you didn't see as being the primary goal of your party.

Essentially you were sold a bill of goods you didn't want to buy from the mainstream media (you also had a few knuckleheads who simply said some stupid things....real idiots). More damaging, you didn't reach out to others who share your views and ideas, and who are just as important and influential to national progress.

Bottom line......the economy (spending, taxes, pensions, etc.) somehow got replaced with social issues of religion, abortion, gay rights, and immigration.

That fear from the old party didn't play well and the voice of the people was loud and clear.

Now that the smoke and dust has settled, we need to recognize a new opportunity. I have an enormous smile on my face. I am a fiscal conservative and I know things have to change.

That change has become a warm ray of light. Extremely calming...and why? Because it's the right thing to do!!! Change can be difficult but it can also be exciting.

I'm so looking forward to a new Republican Party moving forward with new leadership, new members, a new platform, and an overall new face lift. So with that said, as a disgruntled American (and yes, a democrat) this is what I'm looking for in a GOP candidate with regard to several social issues:

Question - Abortion. Answer - "It's the law of the land and I follow the law. Although this area is not my main focus or concern, I hold a high regard for the decision of the Supreme Court, more importantly I respect ones individual decisions".

Question - Gay rights. Answer - "Love is a great and wonderful thing. I support anyone who wishes to commemorate that love with whoever they choose to spend the rest of their life with".

Question - Immigration. Answer - "The path for a better life will always be open to those who want to fulfill the American Dream and become a U.S. citizen. It's the foundation to who we are and what we've become".

Question - Religion. Answer - "I have a deep and personal relationship with God. When I'm in my house of worship I focus on ways to make me a better man. Outside of my house of worship I focus on ways to make my community a better place".


This is not the end of the world people. This is a new beginning. We need to work together, on both sides of the table, to rise the expectation of our leaders. both democratic and republican.

You are exactly the voter I am referring to that "may" have voted for Romney but was pushed to vote for the left due tot he extreme right.

I don't know how you voted, but you explained exactly what I was outlining.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 10:54 AM   #83
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How about we say fukc the Republicans and fukc the Democrats and spend the next four years trying to build a legitimate third party. A party that will appeal to those who don't want to continue to mortgage our great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandchildren's futures. A party that doesn't give a shit about the personal choices people make as long as they are contributing members to society?

I think a party like that is where I fit. I've began to realize I fit in this, "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" label people seem to be throwing out. And at that the only reason I think I fit the liberal part is I just don't give a fukc what people do as long as they pull their own weight. I guess that would make me more, "socially no fucks given, fiscally conservative".

Most people I know, and have talked to seem like they would have fit perfectly into this party. Even some of the ones that may have been a little bit farther left or right would probably have gone along with the idea given the far left/right views each candidate had.

But it seems like that is all a pipe dream. Neither side will ever come closer to the middle, if anything they seem to be drifting farther away.

Fuck it, I'm off to go design plastic drive trains and chase unicorns with cerial. Probably have a better chance of seeing those come to fruition...
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Old November 8th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #84
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You just described the moderate middle this country is in dire need of. I have said it 100 times the last month that both parties need to find a way into the middle. Not a tea party, not a communist, not a christian conservative, but a who cares what you do be responsible for yourself and help this country get out of debt and move forward.....
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Old November 8th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #85
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You just described the moderate middle this country is in dire need of. I have said it 100 times the last month that both parties need to find a way into the middle. Not a tea party, not a communist, not a christian conservative, but a who cares what you do be responsible for yourself and help this country get out of debt and move forward.....
If something like that were ever going to be a viable option I would say now is the time and there is 4 years to actually get something going.

The problem I see is I'm not convinced there will be anything left to save in 4 years. I know that's a pretty doom and gloom kinda view, but at this point I see no proof or reason to believe that there will be.

This world will always have the sova's and the aber's, but I think more of us than not would be happy giving a little to get a little in the middle ground instead of being stubborn jack asses far on the opposite sides.

My hope was that whoever won would look at how close the race was and realize that damn near half the country is not happy with the choice and work to bring this country to a point where everyone is on board instead of forcing their party's agenda down your throat. I highly doubt this will ever happen though.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 12:03 PM   #86
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kickstand for president
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Old November 8th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #87
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I would be all for a third party, as my beliefs pretty much are the same as yours Mike.

The reality is that the entire presidential voting would have to be overhauled (which isn't a bad thing either IMO). Electoral votes wouldn't work, it would have to be by popular vote. I also honestly believe if there was a viable third party, elections would still be decided by 34%. There will always be people who vote Democratic, and always people who vote Republican because those two parties typically carry 85%+ of most people's views. The rest of the people in the middle could go third party, so you still end up in a split.

I really started looking into this and how it would affect our country. Some other countries have multi-party systems, and it's really fucked up. Others have it, and it seems more congested than ours. I don't think there is a perfect solution.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #88
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I don't know if it will happen in the next 4 years but I could see it happening if the 2 existing main parties keep going further to the sides that a third party (actually, a new 2nd party) could emerge in the middle.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #89
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kickstand for president
You are too much of a prick.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:38 PM   #90
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You realize that stagnant thinking will render your group irrelevant, right? If you truly care for the core lessons of Christianity (The Golden Rule, etc.) you will need to change with the times or your group will disappear. If you dwell on these small issues that impact you little to none, your prove that you don't truly care about the big picture of Christianity and are more out to control others and prove a point. Look at the big picture before Christianity is nothing more than a blurb in history books.
I don't really think of it as stagnant thinking. Christians do have values to which we hold as truth. With the group() we tend to choose does lean toward biblcal values. If we did tend to lean left then what would make us any different than ? The do need to do something to attract the moderate/ centrist voter. I don't think leaning left of center is the answer.
Abortion and gay marriage do play a huge part in what society is leaning towards. As a Christian, morally I can't agree to place my suppport behind a party or president that encourages and forces tax payers to foot the bill.
Christianity has been around for more than 2000 years and has been hotly debated, but Christ is not going away.
I do not put my faith in any one party but in Jesus Christ. At the end of the day Obama may be president for another 4 years but Christ is still in control.

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aber,

Scott2.0 is right, the extreme conservative views you have are turning off the fiscally responsible republican party views and creating a stronger democratic party. Alienating yourselves, hurting the entire country, by being too far conservative and pushing other repub/conservative voters to the left.
I do know that those topics are hot button issues amongst many in this country but by trying to compete with a liberal by moving from the right towards the left only creates two liberal left leaning parties. I have always said by sitting on the fence and not taking one side or the other creates division. Just my thought.

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I can actually agree with the majority of your stance on abortion. I would never advocate that it's a form of birth control and personally, I only think it should be an option in situations of rape or when the mother's life is on the line. That said, liberty is about choice and I firmly believe that it should be a choice up until a certain point in the pregnancy. That's where the line gets gray, I agree.

I was more so referring to your opposition of gay marriage, which I firmly believe has little to no effect on your life and needs to be dropped by Christians if you want to begin increasing, or at least maintaining, your numbers.

I do disagreee with you about the whole gay marriage thing, It does affect society as a whole. It degrades the family as a whole. Studies have been done on homosexuality in society and how it affects children. Especially when the youth in this country is a target of gay and lesbian groups. They target schools, girl scouts and boy scouts.
Any parent with young children should be watching what is being taught in our schools.
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You have to be able to view life from a different angle than your own, or else you are imposing your values on others.
Tell me, how do you view life from a different angle without imposing a different value?
An athiest or a non religious person may look at abortion as its ok its not my daughter and it is none of my business.
Another person will look at abortion as murder. The killing of the unborn.
When the governmen t gets involved of killing babies and forcing tax payers to cover those costs, is that not also imposing thier values on others?
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Old November 8th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #91
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I don't really think of it as stagnant thinking. Christians do have values to which we hold as truth. With the group() we tend to choose does lean toward biblcal values. If we did tend to lean left then what would make us any different than ? The do need to do something to attract the moderate/ centrist voter. I don't think leaning left of center is the answer.
Abortion and gay marriage do play a huge part in what society is leaning towards. As a Christian, morally I can't agree to place my suppport behind a party or president that encourages and forces tax payers to foot the bill.
Christianity has been around for more than 2000 years and has been hotly debated, but Christ is not going away.
I do not put my faith in any one party but in Jesus Christ. At the end of the day Obama may be president for another 4 years but Christ is still in control.



I do know that those topics are hot button issues amongst many in this country but by trying to compete with a liberal by moving from the right towards the left only creates two liberal left leaning parties. I have always said by sitting on the fence and not taking one side or the other creates division. Just my thought.




I do disagreee with you about the whole gay marriage thing, It does affect society as a whole. It degrades the family as a whole. Studies have been done on homosexuality in society and how it affects children. Especially when the youth in this country is a target of gay and lesbian groups. They target schools, girl scouts and boy scouts.
Any parent with young children should be watching what is being taught in our schools.


Tell me, how do you view life from a different angle without imposing a different value?
An athiest or a non religious person may look at abortion as its ok its not my daughter and it is none of my business.
Another person will look at abortion as murder. The killing of the unborn.
When the governmen t gets involved of killing babies and forcing tax payers to cover those costs, is that not also imposing thier values on others?
The difference I can voice my opinion without insisting yours is wrong. Note that I never said you should not hold your values, only that you should not prevent me from holding mine.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #92
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The difference I can voice my opinion without insisting yours is wrong. Note that I never said you should not hold your values, only that you should not prevent me from holding mine.
You can hold to your values because that is what you believe to be correct or true, even if they seem wrong or misdirected according to my views. That is what makes this country great, we can agree to disagree.

As Christians we believe God's word to be truth and God cannot lie. So when others tend to place truth according to your values that contradicts what God's word says....... then I tend to look at your views and values as wrong and not consistant to what we believe.
We have two kinds of truth, secular truth and biblical truth.
Anybody that believes in God has to know that His truth is what we should hold fast to and not worldly truth.
I can see how you hold to your values because that is what you see as truth and I don't hold it against you. It's you right. But you have to know that I will always be willing to give you my side of what I believe as values and truth. I may not agree with yours but I will read it and not tell you you are wrong, but will respect you enough to give you my opinion also.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #93
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You can hold to your values because that is what you believe to be correct or true, even if they seem wrong or misdirected according to my views. That is what makes this country great, we can agree to disagree.

As Christians we believe God's word to be truth and God cannot lie. So when others tend to place truth according to your values that contradicts what God's word says....... then I tend to look at your views and values as wrong and not consistant to what we believe.
We have two kinds of truth, secular truth and biblical truth.
Anybody that believes in God has to know that His truth is what we should hold fast to and not worldly truth.
I can see how you hold to your values because that is what you see as truth and I don't hold it against you. It's you right. But you have to know that I will always be willing to give you my side of what I believe as values and truth. I may not agree with yours but I will read it and not tell you you are wrong, but will respect you enough to give you my opinion also.
Which is great, but when others believe differently than you, why do you try to impose your beliefs on them, ex; ensuring gay marriage remains illegal, protesting against abortion, etc. There's a huge difference between offering a differing point of view and trying to ensure that others don't live outside of that view.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #94
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I think Romney and the GOP's biggest problem was managing the "sound bite " campaign. They don't seem to understand that anything that say, in any setting, public or private, can be recorded and uploaded to the internet instantly.

While maybe it was true that 47% would never vote for him, for someone that already came across as from the elite uber-rich, it was a stupid thing to say.

And as someone that has been involved with companies that has sent jobs overseas, he should have checked on the validity of the news report he was siting when he claimed that all Jeep production was going to China.

Those 2 comments, plus a few stupid things said by others in the GOP about rape probably cost him the election.

The GOP's biggest handicap is the fact that the press are deep , and their coverage is extremely biased. Many (too many) Americans count on the press to inform them, and are subject to their spin.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #95
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Which is great, but when others believe differently than you, why do you try to impose your beliefs on them, ex; ensuring gay marriage remains illegal, protesting against abortion, etc. There's a huge difference between offering a differing point of view and trying to ensure that others don't live outside of that view.
Being a Christian does have a responsibility. That is to inform others when they are sining and we all sin even Christians.
Homosexuality and abortion are sins. They equal in God's eye. no sin is greater than the other. But when people think there is nothing wrong with it because so many people are doing it we should just let them live as they want to. That is why Christians speak out so strongly about these issues. In God's eye no sin is acceptable and when a government makes it law then a nation is under judgement because of it. As believers we can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven but non-believers are not and are condemmed because of it.. That is why Christians are so as you would put it, shoving our religion in your face. Just looking out for your future(eternity) you might say and salvation.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #96
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The GOP's biggest handicap is the fact that the press are deep , and their coverage is extremely biased. Many (too many) Americans count on the press to inform them, and are subject to their spin.
And that is how obama won the election, with the help of the press. If not for the biased media he would have lost.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #97
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And that is how obama won the election, with the help of the press. If not for the biased media he would have lost.
Counterpoint: If not for the antiquated, religion-rooted views, Romney would have had more of the younger and the women vote and would have won.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #98
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Being a Christian does have a responsibility. That is to inform others when they are sining and we all sin even Christians.
Homosexuality and abortion are sins. They equal in God's eye. no sin is greater than the other. But when people think there is nothing wrong with it because so many people are doing it we should just let them live as they want to. That is why Christians speak out so strongly about these issues. In God's eye no sin is acceptable and when a government makes it law then a nation is under judgement because of it. As believers we can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven but non-believers are not and are condemmed because of it.. That is why Christians are so as you would put it, shoving our religion in your face. Just looking out for your future(eternity) you might say and salvation.
So you think you know better than others? Your way is right, so others must live as you do, instead of just living as you choose and letting others enjoy the same respect. Man, how self-righteous can someone be? If anyone is wondering why the anti-Christian movement is gaining momentum, it's spelled out for you above. Christianity used to mean something way different.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #99
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So you think you know better than others? Your way is right, so others must live as you do, instead of just living as you choose and letting others enjoy the same respect. Man, how self-righteous can someone be? If anyone is wondering why the anti-Christian movement is gaining momentum, it's spelled out for you above. Christianity used to mean something way different.
I don't know what is better but I do know Who does. It is not my way. It is God's way, He is the boss and made the rules. I just try to follow them. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what your last sentence means? Christianity used to mean something way different, according to who? Your world view or........
I'd really like to know.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #100
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I don't know what is better but I do know Who does. It is not my way. It is God's way, He is the boss and made the rules. I just try to follow them. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what your last sentence means? Christianity used to mean something way different, according to who? Your world view or........
I'd really like to know.
It's God's word according to you. To me, God may mean something differently or I may interpret his word differently. A quick Google search (I am anything but a religion scholar) revealed that self-righteousness is also a sin. So now, two wrongs make a right?

The second part is my opinion. Growing up, being a Christian was about helping others in need, being a positive person and treating others with respect. Today, it seems it's more about telling others they're not acting how one sees they should be, about being spiteful, controlling and overbearing. It seems today's Christians focus more on what is being done wrong (in their opinion) than promoting good. I realize there are still Christians who don't try to control others, but sadly they seem to be the minority. It's become a very divisive group when in reality, I believe it should be something that unifies.
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