Constitutional Amendments on Ballot This Fall

[steveo]

Originally Posted by Nuggets

That sucks but sometimes business owners can be real pieces of work.

Average length of employment there was 6 months.

[Nuggets]

Originally Posted by steveo

Average length of employment there was 6 months.

I've worked for some real pieces of work in the automotive world. There is so much dishonesty (on all levels) in my trade. Combine that with my charming personality and that equals me not working their long because I told someone to fukc off. Being self employed now is good for me because I can control all aspects of my income and if there is a problem, I know who to blame.

[steveo]

Originally Posted by Nuggets

I've worked for some real pieces of work in the automotive world. There is so much dishonesty (on all levels) in my trade. Combine that with my charming personality and that equals me not working their long because I told someone to fukc off. Being self employed now is good for me because I can control all aspects of my income and if there is a problem, I know who to blame.

I have worked for some excellent companies. I have found the big ones suck. This was a smaller company but it was being taken over from the old man by his incompetent children. Family members got bonuses, company trucks and wages several dollars an hour over their counterparts. They had some real talent come in and walk away just in the 9 months I was there. They were mostly driven off by the bosses sons who couldn't stand to hear the truth. I give them 5 years before they belly up.

[Nuggets]

Originally Posted by steveo

I have worked for some excellent companies. I have found the big ones suck. This was a smaller company but it was being taken over from the old man by his incompetent children. Family members got bonuses, company trucks and wages several dollars an hour over their counterparts. They had some real talent come in and walk away just in the 9 months I was there. They were mostly driven off by the bosses sons who couldn't stand to hear the truth. I give them 5 years before they belly up.

I've witnessed/heard about this situation over and over again.

[steveo]

Originally Posted by Nuggets

I've witnessed/heard about this situation over and over again.

I have a serious plan to get out of this line of work before it kills me. I am not taking on any new debt and I am banking 1/3 of my income. When we get rid of the "insert racial slur here" there are some large projects coming down the line. I am really planning on the keystone pipeline. Once that goes through a smart feller would jump on it and work start to finish. After its done you could literally retire off it and live with a much smaller income.

[whiterhino]

Originally Posted by steveo

I have worked for some excellent companies. I have found the big ones suck. This was a smaller company but it was being taken over from the old man by his incompetent children. Family members got bonuses, company trucks and wages several dollars an hour over their counterparts. They had some real talent come in and walk away just in the 9 months I was there. They were mostly driven off by the bosses sons who couldn't stand to hear the truth. I give them 5 years before they belly up.

I have the good fortune of working for a company where the second generation is better than the old man. Smart, honest, even tempered. Put it this way, prior to working here, I never worked anywhere more than 5 years. Primarily for the reasons you guys have listed. I've been here 12 and have no intention of leaving. Working for a small company with an honest owner is awesome.

[Nuggets]

Originally Posted by whiterhino

I have the good fortune of working for a company where the second generation is better than the old man. Smart, honest, even tempered. Put it this way, prior to working here, I never worked anywhere more than 5 years. Primarily for the reasons you guys have listed. I've been here 12 and have no intention of leaving. Working for a small company with an honest owner is awesome.

You are a lucky guy. Having second generation boss(es) that are good to their people and run a solid business is truely rare indeed.

[Nuggets]

Originally Posted by steveo

I have a serious plan to get out of this line of work before it kills me. I am not taking on any new debt and I am banking 1/3 of my income. When we get rid of the "insert racial slur here" there are some large projects coming down the line. I am really planning on the keystone pipeline. Once that goes through a smart feller would jump on it and work start to finish. After its done you could literally retire off it and live with a much smaller income.

(thread derail) Why did Oboingo shit can the Keystone pipeline? It seemed chock full of good for all those involved.

[steveo]

Originally Posted by Nuggets

(thread derail) Why did Oboingo shit can the Keystone pipeline? It seemed chock full of good for all those involved.

Relatively dirty cheap crude versus solar and wind feel good energy. Its political. The same reason he is fucking the coal and oil production Industry. Powder river basin coal is 9.20 a ton and 4/5 of our oil is undrillable. The energy market is being driven high by a artificial scarcity. We could be back to 2008 energy costs quick if we weren't being held back and footing the bill for wind farms.

[steveo]

Coal mines close, miners go on welfare, Obama gains supporters.

[kerryann]

Soo.. yes on number one and no on the rest is my plan.
Anyone else have a plan for the voting booth?
My feeling on the emergency managers is that if the state aka the rest of the taxpayers have to bail you out, then we should have the right to decide your fate.

[jimhri]

State Proposals:


http://www.mlive.com/politics/index...._what_you.html

http://libguides.lib.msu.edu/ballotprops2012

http://www.lwvgta.org/LWVMI-Pro-Con-11-12.pdf

[brewmenn]

Originally Posted by kerryann

Soo.. yes on number one and no on the rest is my plan.
Anyone else have a plan for the voting booth?
My feeling on the emergency managers is that if the state aka the rest of the taxpayers have to bail you out, then we should have the right to decide your fate.

x2

[jimhri]

DuffMan said, in part: ... where Gray Davis agreed to one ridiculously gold-plated contract after another in exchange for the army of public employees voting for him.

gut response: one of the selfish realities is that whatever "management" agrees to with the union usually waterfalls down to the non-union workers too so as to not give them a reason to sign cards. this is also reflected in the benefits ultimately offered the higher management that approved the deal. VESTED SELF-INTEREST.

G00fy1 said, in part: Collective bargaining brings everybody to a middle ground, it doesn't reward the exceptional. .......

my experience sez: collective bargaining brings everybody to the lowest common denominator. no worker wants to incur the wrath of their fellows for being an ass kissing over achiever. those who stick their necks out ar usually ostracized.

High Center Hancho said, in part: ...the public sector is shrinking BIG time...at least for who I work for...

gritting my teeth: IMHO the aforementioned downsizing is usually done in those places most visible to the public so as to create a good impression on and panic amongst the electorate. we'll hear about the lose of teachers, police etc but that still does not stop the elected officials nor the union & members for spending our money like crazy. i live in Oakland County MI and have yet to see a 3 year old county car or rusty dump truck on the road. nobody seems to feel a need to stretch a buck unless it's on the highly visible stuff like new pavement or dead deer by the side of the road they no longer pick up. why does a private business or organization have to "adopt" the next mile of highway and be responsible for trash pick up? i get a bit skeptical when i see all those signs along the shoulder of the road. what am i paying taxes for anyway.

[DuffMan]

There are three HUGE flaws with Proposition 3:

1) The state Constitution is the wrong place for something this narrow and specific. The Constitution establishes rights and high-level values - not specific legislation. Placing it into the Constitution is an attempt to implement something that becomes virtually unchangeable.

2) MI already has laws in place calling for 10% of the portfolio sold in the state to be renewable by 2015 - despite inferences that MI is "behind" or "lagging" other states. This requirement has driven $100s of millions in spend on wind turbines and some solar (solar is still not a great idea in MI). Adding another 15% means that the "wind-friendly" areas of MI (primarily shorelines and areas in the thumb) will be lined with wind turbines and their associated issues (reduced land values, health issues, quality of life issues). Imagine living next to the "thump..thump..thump" of a wind turbine. Ask communities that have them why they're passing laws to prevent any more. See who's providing the $ for all of the Prop 3 advertising (it ain't the Sierra Club - think "people who sell wind turbines").

3) 94,000 jobs added is BS. The real number is "94,000 job years over 25 years". A "job year" is a full time job for 12 months, so it really means that 3760 jobs would be created - and the Mackinac Center has a more detailed analysis that shows 10-12,000 jobs would be LOST due to higher electric rates. Note that the entire renewable energy industry in the U.S. employs 72,000 people and that the wind energy business is thought to be at about 130% of capacity, so it's due for some contraction (i.e. reducing jobs) which is thought by some to be a motivator behind Prop 3. The fantasy that wind turbine manufacturers will spring up all over MI and 1000s will be employed as wind turbine techs is a pipe dream, as we're seeing with the wind farms today.

4) Renewable energy costs more, period. You can quote all manner of academic studies that show an equal or lower price given some assumptions, but it's 2x - 3x the cost to the end user. Ever drive by a big wind farm and see some/most of the turbines braked (i.e. not spinning)? That's because non-renewable power was available at a lower cost, and the wind power operator didn't want to sell at a loss. I drove through central IL a few weeks back and there were 100s of them - most braked. There's a message.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by kerryann

Soo.. yes on number one and no on the rest is my plan.
Anyone else have a plan for the voting booth?
My feeling on the emergency managers is that if the state aka the rest of the taxpayers have to bail you out, then we should have the right to decide your fate.

Amen to your thoughts on Prop 1. I also like 2/3 majority to raise taxes. I'm NO everywhere else.

[homerdogeo8]

We'll have to see how this works out:

Gongwer Poll: Voters Plan To View Proposals Individually
Voters overwhelmingly say they will consider each of the five constitutional amendments on the November ballot one by one and not simply reject them en masse, according to a poll commissioned by Gongwer News Service.
Once five constitutional amendments were certified for the ballot, discussion began about whether voters might simply decide to reject them all out of confusion or frustration. And one television advertisement from opponents of the collective bargaining, renewable energy and home help care proposals has a message of “hands off our Constitution” in which a woman, reviewing the ballot proposals, says, “None of this junk belongs in our Constitution.”
But just 16 percent of voters said in a survey conducted by Lansing-based EPIC/MRA that they were inclined to vote no on all proposals amending the Constitution. Eighty-two percent said they were more inclined to review the proposals individually before deciding how to vote.
The survey was conducted Thursday through Saturday among 600 likely voters via live telephone interviews and has an error margin of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

[kerryann]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

There are three HUGE flaws with Proposition 3:

1) The state Constitution is the wrong place for something this narrow and specific. The Constitution establishes rights and high-level values - not specific legislation. Placing it into the Constitution is an attempt to implement something that becomes virtually unchangeable.

2) MI already has laws in place calling for 10% of the portfolio sold in the state to be renewable by 2015 - despite inferences that MI is "behind" or "lagging" other states. This requirement has driven $100s of millions in spend on wind turbines and some solar (solar is still not a great idea in MI). Adding another 15% means that the "wind-friendly" areas of MI (primarily shorelines and areas in the thumb) will be lined with wind turbines and their associated issues (reduced land values, health issues, quality of life issues). Imagine living next to the "thump..thump..thump" of a wind turbine. Ask communities that have them why they're passing laws to prevent any more. See who's providing the $ for all of the Prop 3 advertising (it ain't the Sierra Club - think "people who sell wind turbines").

3) 94,000 jobs added is BS. The real number is "94,000 job years over 25 years". A "job year" is a full time job for 12 months, so it really means that 3760 jobs would be created - and the Mackinac Center has a more detailed analysis that shows 10-12,000 jobs would be LOST due to higher electric rates. Note that the entire renewable energy industry in the U.S. employs 72,000 people and that the wind energy business is thought to be at about 130% of capacity, so it's due for some contraction (i.e. reducing jobs) which is thought by some to be a motivator behind Prop 3. The fantasy that wind turbine manufacturers will spring up all over MI and 1000s will be employed as wind turbine techs is a pipe dream, as we're seeing with the wind farms today.

4) Renewable energy costs more, period. You can quote all manner of academic studies that show an equal or lower price given some assumptions, but it's 2x - 3x the cost to the end user. Ever drive by a big wind farm and see some/most of the turbines braked (i.e. not spinning)? That's because non-renewable power was available at a lower cost, and the wind power operator didn't want to sell at a loss. I drove through central IL a few weeks back and there were 100s of them - most braked. There's a message.

I say let demand drive the move to renewable resources, not make it government mandated. When the free market can make those energy sources profitable, then you will see energy companies and other businesses using them. Otherwise, it's money ill spent.

[steveo]

Originally Posted by kerryann

I say let demand drive the move to renewable resources, not make it government mandated. When the free market can make those energy sources profitable, then you will see energy companies and other businesses using them. Otherwise, it's money ill spent.

KA I take back everything I ever said about you that may have been negative. Seeing a vegan say this gives me hope.

[kerryann]

Originally Posted by steveo

KA I take back everything I ever said about you that may have been negative. Seeing a vegan say this gives me hope.

I am not a vegan but thanks