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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:21 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
not to speak for wsu - but I for one didn't take his comment as bitching about it - but more correcting the misconception that public servants are on a gravy train. yes, indeed a job is better than sitting at home calling Marvin - but after a while anyone who is incorrectly associated with a few legacy employees gets tired of having a big fat target on their back...

Our current plan makes the insurance companies a lot of money (and their reps. I'm sure) but is essentially generic prescription coverage with a $20 co pay, $20 co pay on office visits and an annual deductible similar to yours for any procedures not covered in a primary care office.

Honestly, I'd rather they give me the annual premiums they pay for our family and we'd be ahead of the game buying catastrophic coverage + a prescription supplement through a family friend in the business.
I wasn't meaning it towards him specifically or thinking he was bitching. I think people in general don't realize that health care coverage is becoming more and more expensive for employers and employees also. Most employees aren't in the know about what their health care actually costs their employer and I can say that our costs have risen approximately 20-30% every year.
I actually like the annual deductible plan because it comes with an HSA attached and provides another tax shelter. If I use the money in my HSA then it's still tax free money and if I don't use it I can roll another (whatever the federal limit is- roughly 5k for a couple) into it next year.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by WSU JK View Post
I'm not bitching about the situation, just pointing out that there have been sacrifices made in the public sector as well and that the benefits and pay scales of those who are currently working in the public sector are generally not nearly as fabulous as people like to paint them to be.
I know that is correct. My mom works in public sector and she moved to the same type of health care plan I have two years before we did. I do know that she gets frusterated with some of her coworkers though because they don't understand that if they don't up some of their benefits then there is a huge possibility that their positions could be eliminated all together.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:26 PM   #43
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I wasn't meaning it towards him specifically or thinking he was bitching. I think people in general don't realize that health care coverage is becoming more and more expensive for employers and employees also. Most employees aren't in the know about what their health care actually costs their employer and I can say that our costs have risen approximately 20-30% every year.
I actually like the annual deductible plan because it comes with an HSA attached and provides another tax shelter. If I use the money in my HSA then it's still tax free money and if I don't use it I can roll another (whatever the federal limit is- roughly 5k for a couple) into it next year.
yeah, some people bury their heads in the sand.

WSU doesn't strike me as the type.

interestingly enough, a lot of the contract job houses seem to try to ignore the value of those benefits when trying to price positions for potential contractors.

a few years ago when I was much more actively looking, I had a lot of interest in my ESRI/GIS and Taxation skill sets - until I mentioned there had to be some recognition of the value of my benefits that I was then earning had to be factored into my base/billing rate before I would consider jumping ship.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 07:18 PM   #44
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Exactly. But, it's not really laziness in all situations. In a union environment there's no going up the ladder for better performance, just more work for you while your co-workers slack off and watch you pick it up, so that really promotes doing only what's expected.
Oh I know. I worked many union jobs, most of that being in the Stage Hand union. There is a reason I never finished my apprenticeship in that or any other union. I can't stand them for that very reason. They aren't doing anything past thier expectations and I'd rather work with people that do.

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I know that is correct. My mom works in public sector and she moved to the same type of health care plan I have two years before we did. I do know that she gets frusterated with some of her coworkers though because they don't understand that if they don't up some of their benefits then there is a huge possibility that their positions could be eliminated all together.
But don't think they won't complain when thier jobs are threatened. Blows my mind. We had to deal with that with the teachers when I was a bus driver.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #45
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Teachers, Cops, and I'm pretty sure firefighters still get performance reviews. So someone has figured out how to make the non-tangible, tangible. And you can honestly tell me that you don't know the difference in your work place between the guy who goes the extra mile and the guy who doesn't? .
I have worked with a lot of Sheriff's deputy's. Some are great, work hard and earn their pay. Some are the laziest assholes on the planet, don't do complete reports, police accidents with the minimum of effort, spend too much time drinking coffee and shooting the shit. Many are somewhere are in between. Should they all be compensated the same? The union says they fall into the same category so they get paid the same.

As far as teachers, my wife was going to teach, along the way she earned a masters degree (in management). She went to the local school district for a position but they cannot hire her as they have to pay her at a much higher rate because of the masters degree. The MEA won't allow the school district to hire teachers with advanced degrees for beginning salary rates because it will screw with the tenured teachers pay and benefits.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #46
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I have worked with a lot of Sheriff's deputy's. Some are great, work hard and earn their pay. Some are the laziest assholes on the planet, don't do complete reports, police accidents with the minimum of effort, spend too much time drinking coffee and shooting the shit. Many are somewhere are in between. Should they all be compensated the same? The union says they fall into the same category so they get paid the same.
I don't think they should be.
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As far as teachers, my wife was going to teach, along the way she earned a masters degree (in management). She went to the local school district for a position but they cannot hire her as they have to pay her at a much higher rate because of the masters degree. The MEA won't allow the school district to hire teachers with advanced degrees for beginning salary rates because it will screw with the tenured teachers pay and benefits.
Totally. Which is actually kind of backwards because the MEA will force you to get a master's if you don't have one once your in.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 10:35 PM   #47
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Here's a couple of more ballot proposals.

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index...._to_ballo.html

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index...._michig_1.html
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Old October 8th, 2012, 12:13 PM   #48
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With voting coming nearer, all of the ads (pro and con) inundating the airwaves for the MI ballot proposals are filled with fear-mongering and misdirection. I colored my opinions green.

Prop 1: Concerns Governor's ability to appoint and powers of Emergency Managers. This is in response to legal challenges to EM laws. Voting "for" allows this to occur.

If bankrupt/failed cities want our state tax dollars, we get say over how they spend it. since they've already proven they can't spend it wisely.

Prop 2: Makes collective bargaining a right per the state Constitution. Has nothing to do with providing firefighters/cops with necessary equipment or turning perverts loose in schools. Voting "for" says that MI cannot become a "right to work" state.

About 11% of MI workers are represented by unions. Why should we modify our state Constitution to provide constitutional defense of unions when their time is coming to an end. Right to work states have jobs and growth. I was just in AL and MS and things were booming - Mercedes, BMW, Airbus, Nissan, and Martin Marietta have opened/are opening huge new facilities and employing thousands. Why would they do business here, especially when our state Constitution defends unions? Doing this effectively kills any chance of manufacturing growth in MI.

Prop 3: Requires that 25% of all electricity in MI come from renewable sources by 2025, and that utilities cannot pass the costs of this onto customers. A misuse of the Constitution according to legal experts on both sides of the issue (i.e. make it a law if you want it, but don't embed it into the Constitution). Voting "for" says MI needs to use the state Constitution to enforce this law.

Why does all of the support for this come from outside MI? 94K jobs? More like a net loss of 10-12K jobs, per the Mackinac Center. Renewable energy costs more, period. If it was truly cheaper, utilities would be building them like crazy - without need for laws and incentives to do so. And placing it into the Constitution means we're stuck with it. An attempt by wind turbine makers and solar panel makers to sell more product.

Prop 4: Gives home health care providers collective bargaining rights, or more specifically reverses an action by the Governor to stop paying a portion of funding for people providing health care services in the home (like family members or home health aides - not RNs, Drs, and medical professionals) directly to the SEIU union for "representing" these people indirectly. That's as objective as I can be on this - it's blatnat highway robbery and does NOTHING to improve or affect patient care or quality of life (despite ad claims). Voting "for" this reinstates the stream of payments to the SEIU.

Paying SEIU $ Snyder took away from them. BAD IDEA.

Prop 5: Requires a 2/3 majority to approve a tax increase. Voting "for" supports this.

Sounds like a good idea.

Prop 6: Requires voter approval before government builds a bridge between Detroit and Canada. Voting "for" supports this.

I'm torn. The current bridge is hammered with NAFTA traffic, so it's like asking us to fund the more efficient movement of jobs out of MI and into Canada. But then, anything that benefits Manny Marroun has got to be a bad thing.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 12:36 PM   #49
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I often work with the Citizens Research Council of Michigan for certain things and was on their site earlier today looking something up and came across their very nice, succinct write-ups for each of the ballot proposals: http://www.crcmich.org/election/index.html
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Old October 8th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #50
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Mike hancho gets upset when his sugar bowl gets threatened.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
yeah, some people bury their heads in the sand.

WSU doesn't strike me as the type.

interestingly enough, a lot of the contract job houses seem to try to ignore the value of those benefits when trying to price positions for potential contractors.

a few years ago when I was much more actively looking, I had a lot of interest in my ESRI/GIS and Taxation skill sets - until I mentioned there had to be some recognition of the value of my benefits that I was then earning had to be factored into my base/billing rate before I would consider jumping ship.
I know this is an older post. BUT....contract houses (or at least the ones that I have worked for and the recruiters I have worked with) do not ignore the value of benefits. I OFTEN will overpay a candidate if I can to help him cover the increased cost of contract benefits.

The person who didn't take into account benefits is most often the employee/HR of the hiring company.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #52
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Wow, Honcho better hope Pitbulls do not get Union representation.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #53
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I don't think they should be.


Totally. Which is actually kind of backwards because the MEA will force you to get a master's if you don't have one once your in.
BULL SHIT. The state of Michigan mandates that teachers must continue thier education not MEA.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 08:08 PM   #54
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BULL SHIT. The state of Michigan mandates that teachers must continue thier education not MEA.
Until they have a Masters degree then they are exempt from that requirement (I believe). But when you get the Masters you have to get paid at a higher rate.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 08:40 PM   #55
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I support Michigan becoming a Right to Work state. Why?

1) The first two hours of my fire department pay each month goes to a union I don't support.

2) Some of my dues money is being used to back a narcisssistic socialist president who looks down his nose at people who get off their asses. I can't fathom an organization that protects "workers" backing a president that wants to give earned money to those too lazy to earn their own.

3) I fired a guy on Friday for poor performance and unreliability. I did not have to kiss a union's ass to get rid of the employee nor did I have to send the employee to Responsibility School or wutever the union folk are calling their second chance program for losers these days.

4) Paying everybody the same rewards the lazy and punishes the motivated. I am a strong believer in pay being a function of performance and market demand.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #56
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I support Michigan becoming a Right to Work state. Why?

1) The first two hours of my fire department pay each month goes to a union I don't support.

2) Some of my dues money is being used to back a narcisssistic socialist president who looks down his nose at people who get off their asses. I can't fathom an organization that protects "workers" backing a president that wants to give earned money to those too lazy to earn their own.

3) I fired a guy on Friday for poor performance and unreliability. I did not have to kiss a union's ass to get rid of the employee nor did I have to send the employee to Responsibility School or wutever the union folk are calling their second chance program for losers these days.

4) Paying everybody the same rewards the lazy and punishes the motivated. I am a strong believer in pay being a function of performance and market demand.
Then you have guys like me. I got hurt on the job. My employer pressures me to not go to the doctor. I go to doctor, find out my knee is injured and I will be off work for a while. My employer promptly laid me off after 9 months of me working my ass off for them. Wyoming is a right to work state.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #57
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Then you have guys like me. I got hurt on the job. My employer pressures me to not go to the doctor. I go to doctor, find out my knee is injured and I will be off work for a while. My employer promptly laid me off after 9 months of me working my ass off for them. Wyoming is a right to work state.
Although you have a valid statement, I still don't support forced union membership. If you worked for me full time and got hurt, my workman's comp. insurance would take care of you. Whether I got rid of you after the incident would depend on how you injured yourself. If you had followed SOP's and your injury was no fault of your own, I'd welcome you back when the doctor ok'd it. If you hurt yourself because of horseplay, too lazy to use proper equipment, or did not follow SOP's, I probably would strongly consider replacing you.

I know some employer's suck but that is a fact of life. I have been hurt on the job (Dow) and been run through the ringer because of it. I've also had to pay increased workman's comp premiums because an employee was not wearing his safety glasses when he opened the shop overhead door and a small piece of metal came off the door seal and lodged in his eye. This was literally the day after I lectured him about wearing his safety glasses at all times in the shop. I did not fire him because if this incident but I eventually let him go due to his inability to tell time in the morning (always late).
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Old October 8th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #58
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I slipped on some ice that had formed under a drip. I did everything by the book. My employer even contested my claim, luckily my Co workers were willing to be witnesses. Fuck em anyway, I was about fed up with them, it still grinds my gears that now a major chunk of my employment history is worth zip as a reference.
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Old October 8th, 2012, 09:43 PM   #59
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Until they have a Masters degree then they are exempt from that requirement (I believe). But when you get the Masters you have to get paid at a higher rate.
No exemptions, every six years they need six college credits or 18 CEU's. which all schooling is paid out of pocket for the teachers. That is just to renew your certificate.

You only need about 30 credits to get a masters so you would be a fool not to get a masters and get a pay increase. No one needs the MEA to tell them to get a masters.
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Old October 9th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #60
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I slipped on some ice that had formed under a drip. I did everything by the book. My employer even contested my claim, luckily my Co workers were willing to be witnesses. Fuck em anyway, I was about fed up with them, it still grinds my gears that now a major chunk of my employment history is worth zip as a reference.
That sucks but sometimes business owners can be real pieces of work.
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