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Old September 27th, 2012, 10:18 PM   #281
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Old September 27th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #282
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Will someone show me Scripture where Jesus the rabbi said to ignore Jewish laws?
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Old September 27th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #283
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L4CX, you use Christian circular logic when presenting what you think are facts. I use the scientific method to confirm or dismiss information presented to me as true. You believe what you are told, I believe what I confirm is true. If your system works for you, great.

As far has what you quoted me for in you last post, this information was addressed to amc78bj7 as a rebuttle to his earlier statement. He as yet to acknowlege that I proved him wrong...multiple times.

The "I'm a welder" type statement you refered to was in response to amc78 questioning my qualifications then refering to me as Dr. Nuggets. He whipped out his "I'm a Scientist" card so I felt I would bring him up on my background. I don't feel I'm better than anybody else, I just enjoy calling out people that are full of shit or are pushy with their agenda. You stated you beliefs but I did not call out you, amc78dingdongcj7 tried to call me out on a statement and it backfired on him, badly.

I've had many discussions about religion with you yet I don't get in your face about it. Why's that? It's because you discuss the subject intelligently presenting information that you feel is correct. You've even acknowleged corrections on occasions. We are in disagreement about informations sources so you have gone your way and I have gone mine, respectfully. That can not be said about others who challenged me to prove them wrong.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 11:09 PM   #284
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L4CX, you use Christian circular logic when presenting what you think are facts. I use the scientific method to confirm or dismiss information presented to me as true. You believe what you are told, I believe what I confirm is true. If your system works for you, great.
I'm not using "the bible is the word of God because the God said it was the word of God in the bible" argument with your question to the fulfillment of Jewish law. I'm merely using the more recent information, the NT, to link the two together. It's no different then a Math book using information gained in previous chapters to build the next chapter on. It's actually very much like that. There is a Linear path that the bible follows if you take the time to understand it.

Also, I haven't been told most of what I share on here. I've learned it through study that has been encouraged by my pastors messages and even discussions I've had on here. That's why you have seen the 'corrections'. I have alot of questions about my faith and I try my hardest to understand them through PERSONAL devotion in God's word.

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We are in disagreement about informations sources so you have gone your way and I have gone mine, respectfully. That can not be said about others who challenged me to prove them wrong.
I'm just saying that you haven't proven them wrong yet. You thought you did, using snip-bits of Scripture, but you're lacking in the understanding of the Book as a whole. I'm not saying I do, but in this instance, many people have given you the explanation and it just isn't 'good enough' for you. The only way I think you would be happy would be for me to go through all 500+ Jewish laws and put a 'Y' or 'N' after them indicating which one is still in play and which one is not. I'm not going to do that because I just don't have the time.

I offered to give you a contact that would probably have that list, in his head, already. Or at least be able to quantify the Jewish laws into the different kinds of transgressions and thier correlating sacrificial needs in order to 'be right with God'. I won't see him tomorrow because I'm on call here at camp this weekend. I can still get a hold of him if you'd like.
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Old September 30th, 2012, 09:33 AM   #285
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I'm not using "the bible is the word of God because the God said it was the word of God in the bible" argument with your question to the fulfillment of Jewish law. I'm merely using the more recent information, the NT, to link the two together. It's no different then a Math book using information gained in previous chapters to build the next chapter on. It's actually very much like that. There is a Linear path that the bible follows if you take the time to understand it.

Also, I haven't been told most of what I share on here. I've learned it through study that has been encouraged by my pastors messages and even discussions I've had on here. That's why you have seen the 'corrections'. I have alot of questions about my faith and I try my hardest to understand them through PERSONAL devotion in God's word.



I'm just saying that you haven't proven them wrong yet. You thought you did, using snip-bits of Scripture, but you're lacking in the understanding of the Book as a whole. I'm not saying I do, but in this instance, many people have given you the explanation and it just isn't 'good enough' for you. The only way I think you would be happy would be for me to go through all 500+ Jewish laws and put a 'Y' or 'N' after them indicating which one is still in play and which one is not. I'm not going to do that because I just don't have the time.

I offered to give you a contact that would probably have that list, in his head, already. Or at least be able to quantify the Jewish laws into the different kinds of transgressions and thier correlating sacrificial needs in order to 'be right with God'. I won't see him tomorrow because I'm on call here at camp this weekend. I can still get a hold of him if you'd like.
This is the subjective interpretation of the Bible that I don't like. There are so many interpretations of various rules or ideas that my head swirls. I can not accept grey area interpretations when aggressive Christians (or Christian groups) point to Old Testimate laws to further their ideals. I.E. Homosexuality is a sin. Yes I agree that the Bible says that but it also says you must kill them. This is an example of Christians cherry picking OT laws to suit their needs. I don't condone the killing of anybody because they prefer people with identical genitelia, I'm just making a point.

Once again, I know I will not sway you in your beliefs and I'm ok with that. You use a logic system that allows the use of the Bible and use one that uses (what the scientific community would recognize as) facts.
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Old September 30th, 2012, 12:34 PM   #286
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This is the subjective interpretation of the Bible that I don't like. There are so many interpretations of various rules or ideas that my head swirls. I can not accept grey area interpretations when aggressive Christians (or Christian groups) point to Old Testimate laws to further their ideals. I.E. Homosexuality is a sin. Yes I agree that the Bible says that but it also says you must kill them. This is an example of Christians cherry picking OT laws to suit their needs. I don't condone the killing of anybody because they prefer people with identical genitelia, I'm just making a point.

Once again, I know I will not sway you in your beliefs and I'm ok with that. You use a logic system that allows the use of the Bible and use one that uses (what the scientific community would recognize as) facts.
I have an idea for you to fix your delema. Learn Ancient Hebrew, then you can figure out all your problems you have with GOD.
See my thinking is you really don't have a problem with Christians or the Bible.
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Old September 30th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #287
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This is the subjective interpretation of the Bible that I don't like. There are so many interpretations of various rules or ideas that my head swirls. I can not accept grey area interpretations when aggressive Christians (or Christian groups) point to Old Testimate laws to further their ideals. I.E. Homosexuality is a sin. Yes I agree that the Bible says that but it also says you must kill them. This is an example of Christians cherry picking OT laws to suit their needs. I don't condone the killing of anybody because they prefer people with identical genitelia, I'm just making a point.

Once again, I know I will not sway you in your beliefs and I'm ok with that. You use a logic system that allows the use of the Bible and use one that uses (what the scientific community would recognize as) facts.
It's not an example of cherry picking so stop calling it that. That's your opinion, but it's wrong. . Seriously though, the connections between the OT and NT are there for a reason. That reason being to point to the coming of Christ and his Fulfillment of the law. Read any of the prophets and you'll blindingly see them pointing to the messiah or God's people inability to meet his standards. Read Hebrews and you'll see how Christ fulfilled the law and what the Prophets foretold. How the Hell am I nitpicking or cherry picking if I'm suggesting you read a whole entire book (not the bible, but Hebrews/prophets)? The reason Christians use the OT to back up what they believe is because it is PART of what they believe.

I also don't need the OT to show that Homosexuality, among MANY sins, is listed in the NT. None of which encourage believers to kill anybody. Those lists are not meant to quantify the level of sin but to show that everyone is in the same boat. That we are in need of a Savior and God's Mercy and Grace.
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Old September 30th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #288
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Once again, you use a different logic system, it's based on faith or what others tell you are facts. If that's working for you, I'm not one to say you should believe like me. I will however point out descrepancies if I'm told something is a fact. I do this to everything, not just the Bible. After working in the scientific community for a number of years, I had to make sure my facts were lined up our I would be hung out to dry during presentations or reports. There is no "fudge factor" in chemical research. If something is a guess, it better be called a hypotheosis.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 12:42 PM   #289
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Once again, you use a different logic system, it's based on faith or what others tell you are facts. If that's working for you, I'm not one to say you should believe like me. I will however point out descrepancies if I'm told something is a fact. I do this to everything, not just the Bible. After working in the scientific community for a number of years, I had to make sure my facts were lined up our I would be hung out to dry during presentations or reports. There is no "fudge factor" in chemical research. If something is a guess, it better be called a hypotheosis.
Have your read Hebrews yet? There are plenty examples the author gives in the first 15 chapters. I won't taint it with my perception but, from what I've come to understand from that book, there really is a solid and essential connection between the OT law and the Teachings and sacrifice of Jesus. So....Go make your own opinion on the subject by reading some of the book. Especially chapters 3-7.

***Wanring, Speculation****
BTW, the author, by his ability to reference and his understanding of the OT scriptures, was most likely a Rabbi or religious leader of the Jews. That means he knew the law very well and had a vast understanding of it.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 01:50 PM   #290
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Have your read Hebrews yet? There are plenty examples the author gives in the first 15 chapters. I won't taint it with my perception but, from what I've come to understand from that book, there really is a solid and essential connection between the OT law and the Teachings and sacrifice of Jesus. So....Go make your own opinion on the subject by reading some of the book. Especially chapters 3-7.

***Wanring, Speculation****
BTW, the author, by his ability to reference and his understanding of the OT scriptures, was most likely a Rabbi or religious leader of the Jews. That means he knew the law very well and had a vast understanding of it.
But you're still using the same circular logic of using the bible to try to prove what is in the bible is true.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 01:53 PM   #291
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But you're still using the same circular logic of using the bible to try to prove what is in the bible is true.
Lol. Good luck changing that. Its hard opening up your mind.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 02:05 PM   #292
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But you're still using the same circular logic of using the bible to try to prove what is in the bible is true.
But I'm not trying to prove it true. I'm merely stating what the people who believe in the bible believe about it. He is trying to say that it's wrong or it's inconsistent. Mostly by the same exact method that I use, by pointing to verses in the bible.
However, he thinks it's circular reasoning when I do and logic when he does it. When in fact, I'm quoting texts in context and he is not.

The only difference is that my studies line up with people that have Doctorates in biblical study. That look at the original text, in it's original language, and bring to light the subtle differences that our language is not able to communicate. That have read other manuscripts that back up what those beliefs and verses say. I've offered to give him a connection in that area but he has, as far as I can tell, no interest in having a conversation with someone who is an expert on the subject.

I also have a better understanding of the text because, to me personally, it's the living word of God. Why wouldn't I know it better? If you could talk to God, get insight from him, would you not? If you were told that we could be saved by Grace alone, wouldn't you want to try and understand why? And if you couldn't understand wouldn't you go to someone who does? I'm not saying I know everything about the bible, But I do know the connection between the OT laws and the fulfillment that came through Christ.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 03:20 PM   #293
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I believe that God loves all the people in the world, no matter there sins, addictions, sexual perversions or vices.

I believe that God understand my heart and mind, and yours too. Although we know we don't align in thought with God, He loves us in spite of it.

I believe that christians are skylined for beliefs because they say with thier mouth, but don't do as they say all the time. this makes a person a hypocrite. Even though every person in this world is at one time or another imperfect and doesn't do as they may say, christians are more recognized for it because of thier openness of thier beliefs.

I believe that christian extremists are just as bad as muslim extremists. They want to kill eachother.

I don't believe that the Westboro Church, although loved by God despite thier anti-christian ways, is right in thier approach to the definitions of the Bible.

I believe more, but I mostly believe that God loves me, cares for me, and even though I am in idiot in his eyes, he directs my paths, listens to me, and holds me the same way a parents holds thier child.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 04:57 PM   #294
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After reading every post in this thread I will say we all have the free will to choose what ever we believe in that is Gods intention, he wants us to choose him freely because we believe in him and that he sent his son Jesus to die for our sins. He knew we would never be able to live up to the expectations set forth for us in the Old testament that is why by the blood of Jesus our sin is paid for. We are all sinners we simply can't help it as we have forces of evil constantly bombarding us .
However once we have received the offering of the blood of the lamb as our attonement it is our duty to at least try and live as a child of God and not repeatedly sin the same sin over and over expecting forgiveness. I also have witnessed great hypocrisy in my lifetime and it took me several years to understand that those situations had nothing to do with my personal relationship with God. My relationship with God has gotten stronger through adversity and trials.
My relationship with my Dad was not the greatest growing up my Uncles basically raised me. About 5 years ago I broke my spine in two places resulting in permanent nerve damage to my left leg and foot. It also has some affect on my arms and hands. The company I worked at for 28 years decided to let me go. I was devastated as I was sure I would lose everything I had worked all those years for. I questioned why would God if there was one let this happen to me as I was so close to retirement. During this time my dad and I got alot closer, spending alot of time together.
My dad ended up living through a massive coronary, 2 stents, and triple bypass during this time and I was there for him and my mother. He ended up having a very severe storke that ended his life in 2009. When he suffered the stroke we all prayed to God for a miracle. He ended up coming out of his coma for 1 1/2 days where he could talk very slurred speech, and could open his eyes and count with his fingers on his right hand. His left side was completely paralyzed. We all thought this was the miracle we had prayed for the doctors were astonished at his unexplained recovery. We were all feeling in high hopes. Then Sunday morning came and the doctors called us and said to get the whole family to the hospital. My father had relapsed into his deep coma and we had to make the decision to keep him alive with feeding tubes, breathing machines, and constant suctioning of his lungs as he was drowning in his own fluids. He had always told us if a day came where he was being kept alive by machines he didn't want to live that way, as his father was kept alive like that for 18 months.
I immediately asked God if this was your plan why did you give us false hope by allowing him to come out of the coma in the first place. Little did I know at that time that while he was cognizant he had prayed with my mother and my Uncle whom is a pastor for salvation as he wasn't a Christian before that. I was extremely mad at God for the false hope. My wife said you got your miracle you just don't know it your father got saved while he was awake. My belief is that God let me break my spine and lose my job so that I could spend time and repair my relationship with my father, he let my father come out of his coma to gain salvation what greater gift is there?
Some non believers and believers alike seem to forget that Satan is allowed to test our faith and blindly ask why God is doing something. God wants us to take him for his word and have faith and trust that he is doing what is best for us. What father doesn't appreciate it when he gives a promise to his child for something and the child doesn't keep asking when they will receive the promise they just trust that it will happen because they love and believe their fathers word. For me it's this simple now, I used to question alot of things and went astray for many years and have lost several family members in the past few years but each time more friends and family get drawn closer to God . I still don't have all the answers and still at times question but try much harder now to just let God lead the way and trust that he has the best path planned for me.

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Old October 2nd, 2012, 07:21 PM   #295
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Hmmm.....

As human beings, men are imperfect- 'To err is Human', etc.

The Bible is the word of God, written down by men.

Since men are imperfect, and men in essence created the bible by transcribing the word of God, then the Bible must be imperfect.

I call this 'Star Trek' logic after how Capt. Kirk defeated Nomad. And no one can debate the awesomeness of Capt. Kirk.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 10:47 PM   #296
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I BELIEVE....... I'm going to have some strawberries.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 11:29 PM   #297
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I believe that the men whom were given the inspiration to write the Bible were also given divine revelation to make sure the information given was accurate. I also find it ironic but also reassuring how many non believers or atheists when faced with a deadly disease or a life threatening situation suddenly call upon God for help. I've seen it multiple times.
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 12:00 AM   #298
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Hmm.....

Did people create God to explain their existence, or did God create people to have someone praise him?
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 09:43 AM   #299
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I believe in the 7 sins. I try to avoid them as much as I can. I consider many sins unforgivable. I believe there is a link between the sun and god. Bringer of life, death, happiness and such. That when you die you are tormented for your sins in a fiery core and must be a servant afterward. If you do return that is, once again Many are unforgivable.
So, enjoy life now while you can. Compared to what is to come this is "heaven" and the only thing making it otherwise is the choices that you make causing havoc and headaches of your own nature.
But hey I'm just a open minded crazy ass dreamer. I won't pretend to know anything about this because frankly no one does. Kind of the basis of faith is not knowing. Still believing there is some underlying justice keeps me from falling into prosperity at the expense of morals.

Good things happen to good people because they believe that everything is perfect and get cocky. Bad things happen to bad people as a manner of justice. People are taken from us to serve as a lesson and a memory to make us better. Things are just things, it is what you do with them to better other people that makes them tools. Respecting peoples condition in life and trying to help instead of looking down on them will better your understanding. Knowing when to stop helping and let someone grow on there own determines the will of both you and the person you help. I could go on but it would just be rambling. People decide for themselves what they believe. People will not know what is right until it is to late.
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