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Old July 16th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
Here's the missed point:

Business and the citizenry benefit from infrastructure (roads, fire departments, police, military, schools, etc...).

That infrastructure was financed by taxes - taxes largely paid by businesses and the wealthy.

Or, in other words, business success financed the infrastructure, not the other way around. That's why you don't see quality infrastructure in Somalia, Zaire, Haiti, or the Congo.

And continued business success finances the upkeep and replacement / expansion / upgrading of that infrastructure.

The creation of capital drives the development of society - not the other way around.
And with that, look at how advanced Michigan, or better yet Metro Detroit became from the success of the auto companies. Is it coincidence that Woodward ave was the first divided hwy in the United States or that the Davison Freeway was the first Freeway? And as much as I can't stand the lib's in Hollywood, did all those superstars make it big from the government? How about the sports stars? (remember the recent thread about elite athletes?) I don't think so.


I get that we all advance from those before us. No different than my dad teaching me what he learned so I didn't have to learn it for myself. There have been some great statements (that I won't take the time to quote) in this thread about the fact that the taxpayers built the country, not the government.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #62
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Only thing i owe the gvmnt for My successful business is fucking taxes....
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Old July 17th, 2012, 12:28 AM   #63
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Yep. So the discussion that needs to happen is not "should we..." but "how much should we..."
So you feel that business are not paying their "fair share" back to the community. Have you ever been self employed? Owning a small business can be a real bitch sometimes with cash going out everywhere and none going home. MANY small business owners toil extreamly long hours and still have to take money from the household to keep the doors open. For those that have the right combination of skills, location, financial management and even a little luck, it's hard to convice them that they owe more now just because they've busted their ass to get what they have.

What needs to happen instead of the guberment placing the burdon on remaining small business is to make this country more friendly to manufacturing. We need to develope ways to compete in the world economy and get some leaders in office that understand simple economics and financial management. Unless we can cut our ties to China and become self sufficient again, we're doomed.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 12:33 AM   #64
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Whos not paying their fair share? The 51% that pay no federal income tax use the largest percentage of federal services.

Im down with the fair share sentiment, but lets apply it equally. If there is no intention of equal application, lets call it what it really is. Soak the rich, take it cause they have it, etc.

Along with our responsibility to maintain whats been built, its our Governments responsibility to not squander those monies. Problem reverts back to the 51%. The right gets blasted for voting for their own best interests. But in all reality, we are the minority voting block in this country.
Here's a little reading material about those evil 51% that didn't pay federal income tax in a certain year. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505

And it doesn't matter if you use the term "fair share" or "equally" or "equal application". you will never get agreement. We could debate it until the end of time and never reach an agreement.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 12:41 AM   #65
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A friend of mine owns a number of business properties valued at a couple million dollars (gross). He pays over $40K in property taxes anually and has to work a full time job because his rental business is not producing like it used to. So I guess he should also get a part time job along with his full time joan (and find time to maintain 62 rental units) to pay even more into the system because Johnny Noskills is upset because he got a water bill.

I pay nearly $5K in property taxes and I also have to pay personal property tax on equipment for my business that I already paid taxes on when I bought the equipment! Don't forget, I'm also expected to collect sales tax and send that to the proper government authorities too.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #66
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This is not an abnormality. But in underscores the bigger issue... We CANT do anything without being tied to Government in some way. That is the issue.
Welcome to modern society. This has been going on since, oh, about, the fucking beginning of history.

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This is a circular argument... I can not argue that the free market would have overcome these issue because it was not allowed to reach a state of equilibrium. While I see the merit in the argument that Government did good, the problem is it never stopped. Now we have hate crimes legislation and suffocation warnings on ziplock bags. The ends, IMO, do not justify the means.
I agree that there's to much regulation, But I don't know if any sort of "equilibrium" would have been reached before we poisoned ourselves out of existence.

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Imagine what it could have been without the high taxation.....
My guess would be wild swings from boom to bust like we have seen in other times of low taxation.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #67
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So you feel that business are not paying their "fair share" back to the community. Have you ever been self employed? Owning a small business can be a real bitch sometimes with cash going out everywhere and none going home. MANY small business owners toil extreamly long hours and still have to take money from the household to keep the doors open. For those that have the right combination of skills, location, financial management and even a little luck, it's hard to convice them that they owe more now just because they've busted their ass to get what they have.

What needs to happen instead of the guberment placing the burdon on remaining small business is to make this country more friendly to manufacturing. We need to develope ways to compete in the world economy and get some leaders in office that understand simple economics and financial management. Unless we can cut our ties to China and become self sufficient again, we're doomed.
No, I already said I do not claim to know what anyone's "fair share" is. No, I have never been self employed, now do I want to be, because I don't want to have to worry about all that stuff.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 01:06 AM   #68
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A friend of mine owns a number of business properties valued at a couple million dollars (gross). He pays over $40K in property taxes anually and has to work a full time job because his rental business is not producing like it used to. So I guess he should also get a part time job along with his full time joan (and find time to maintain 62 rental units) to pay even more into the system because Johnny Noskills is upset because he got a water bill.

I pay nearly $5K in property taxes and I also have to pay personal property tax on equipment for my business that I already paid taxes on when I bought the equipment! Don't forget, I'm also expected to collect sales tax and send that to the proper government authorities too.
I don't know why your friend cannot earn a decent return on his millions of assets, so I can't comment on that.

All of the taxes you mentioned are state or local taxes, so What Obama does doesn't effect these.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #69
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Here's a little reading material about those evil 51% that didn't pay federal income tax in a certain year. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505
Something doesnt jive here. Unless some of these poor households dont have kids, which I would find very hard to believe.....

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Moreover, low-income households as a group do, in fact, pay federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data show that the poorest fifth of households paid an average of 4.0 percent of their incomes in federal taxes in 2007, the latest year for which these data are available ó not an insignificant amount given how modest these householdsí incomes are; the poorest fifth of households had average income of $18,400 in 2007.[6] The next-to-the bottom fifth ó those with incomes between $20,500 and $34,300 in 2007 ó paid an average of 10.6 percent of their incomes in federal taxes.
My annual income is just over $50,000 and my effective rate is generally around 3%. I do not claim every deduction I can. How is it a household making less than half of what I make is paying double the tax? Something doesn't add up.

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Moreover, even these figures greatly understatelow-income householdsí totaltax burden because these households also pay substantial state and local taxes. Data from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy show that the poorest fifth of households paid a stunning 12.3 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes in 2011.[7]
And again, same as above. Someone is playing fast and loose with the numbers.

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And it doesn't matter if you use the term "fair share" or "equally" or "equal application". you will never get agreement. We could debate it until the end of time and never reach an agreement.
Thats why no legislative policy should be written based on whats "fair." Fair is to subjective. It should be based in the fundamental concept that we are all equal with the same opportunities and protected ability to pursue our own happiness.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 05:23 AM   #70
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Welcome to modern society. This has been going on since, oh, about, the fucking beginning of history.
Fortunately we have that history to look back on. How has it worked out in the past when Governments have become bloated to the point ours has? Look at Spain, Italy, Europe as a whole.

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I agree that there's to much regulation, But I don't know if any sort of "equilibrium" would have been reached before we poisoned ourselves out of existence.
Have we as a race done some stupid things? Sure have. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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My guess would be wild swings from boom to bust like we have seen in other times of low taxation.
Seems we are busting right now. The Governments coffers have swelled. At what point is there nothing left to take? Government Debt has tripled in the last 4 years. Government has been printing money and now the answer to cover that paper is to force the citizens to pay the note? How irresponsible is that? And why does it continue? Because enough of the voting base is kept happy with bread and circuses.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 05:25 AM   #71
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All of the taxes you mentioned are state or local taxes, so What Obama does doesn't effect these.
Not sure if you do not see th cause and effect relationship or if you are purposefully not seeing it...

When more money has to go to DC, thats less that is able to go anywhere else. Higher Federal taxes to effect state and local taxes and ones ability to pay them. Nevermind a business owner wanting to give back to the community. Something will give.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 06:10 AM   #72
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Yes. I think thatís what he meant to say. His poor choice of words was made to look even worse by the selective editing by the web pages linked. Iíd like to see the entire text of the speech.
Itís not a matter of giving back vs. not giving back. Itís a matter of degrees. Obama thinks successful people and businesses should give back more, Romney thinks they should be allowed to give back less.

Iím undecided.
Undecided? To quote Marx, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Is this really what America is about? Is this the philosophy that propelled us to superpower status in a mere 100 years? Or was it the "American Dream" of individual liberty our forefathers bled for?

The very people that are vilified in this ongoing, orchestrated division of the "classes" are the very people that already pay their "fair share".

The top 10% of wage earners pay over 70% of the federal income tax revenue and more than 50% of all federal taxes. Source

The U.S. corpoate tax rate is the highest in the world at 39.2%! Source

Now, I'm not wealthy by any means, but it seems to me that the tax collection in this country is a bit "unfair" already, just not the same definition as the current administration's.

The people have been fed lies about this, among other things, for 40+ years. A classic socialism tactic. "If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

Class warfare, race warfare, religious warfare, they have to keep us divided on every front possible. It's classic Saul Alinsky, "The first step in community organization is community disorganization."

At some point the earners will cease earning here and opt for a more tax-friendly location. Then where will we be?
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Old July 17th, 2012, 08:08 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
A friend of mine owns a number of business properties valued at a couple million dollars (gross). He pays over $40K in property taxes anually and has to work a full time job because his rental business is not producing like it used to. So I guess he should also get a part time job along with his full time joan (and find time to maintain 62 rental units) to pay even more into the system because Johnny Noskills is upset because he got a water bill.

I pay nearly $5K in property taxes and I also have to pay personal property tax on equipment for my business that I already paid taxes on when I bought the equipment! Don't forget, I'm also expected to collect sales tax and send that to the proper government authorities too.
40k annually is not that much on a 62 unit apartment. I've appraised houses that had the PRE (homestead exemption) and still paid $120,000 annually in property taxes.

until last year, our annual property tax bill on our modest home in Fenton was $3,600

one problem that proponents of eliminating personal property tax don't realize, is that exempting it altogether just means that your local government/services have even less to provide basic services, and your local tax attorney will simply get richer as he will argue (and in some cases win) that things that are commonly viewed as part of the realty under the guise of fixtures and leasehold improvements are in actuality "personal property". Therefore, that $200,000,000 factory is now suddenly taxed as an empty shell building, and since there is little to no market for a 1.5M SF industrial shell building that it suffers from economic obsolescence so now will have a property tax levy less than you currently pay.

All that does, is shove more of the burden onto home-owners and small businesses that can't afford the high priced attorney's - or don't have significant enough sized potential settlement offers to attract their services.

all of that being said, I understand your points about small businesses getting shafted from every single direction and is one of the key reasons why such a huge percentage of them fail.




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I don't know why your friend cannot earn a decent return on his millions of assets, so I can't comment on that.

All of the taxes you mentioned are state or local taxes, so What Obama does doesn't effect these.

More than likely he doesn't actually own a couple million in assets free and clear - in fact most commercial property is not owned free and clear, rather they are on a cycle of nearly endless 5 year balloon, 20-30 year amortized loans leveraged at 80/20 (or worse) - after taking into account depreciation, financing charges and other tax shelters it's likely that he shows a paper loss year after year, and his true internal rate of return can't really be calculated until the reversion/sale when he's ready to cash out of that investment.

If lenders would do conventional 30 year notes for commercially zoned property that might change, but typically when analyzing the value of a commercial property it's a multi-layered affair, developing a capitalization rate on the leveraged portion, as well as the "cash on cash/equity" portion of the investment.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 08:16 AM   #74
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The U.S. corpoate tax rate is the highest in the world at 39.2%! Source
Not to agree with Bruce's perception, but don't ignore this:
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Loopholes and other special treatment for different kinds of businesses mean that businesses pay an effective rate of only 29.2% of their income, which puts the United States below the average of 31.9% among other major economies, according to analysis by the Treasury Department.
All that being said, corporate tax is of course also more than double taxed when it finally gets down to the owners of that corporation. and to think some libby's want to see a VAT implemented.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 08:40 AM   #75
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40k annually is not that much on a 62 unit apartment.

It's a lot to me. Also, he owns multiple properties, the largest being a 10 unit.


More than likely he doesn't actually own a couple million in assets free and clear - in fact most commercial property is not owned free and clear, rather they are on a cycle of nearly endless 5 year balloon, 20-30 year amortized loans leveraged at 80/20 (or worse) - after taking into account depreciation, financing charges and other tax shelters it's likely that he shows a paper loss year after year, and his true internal rate of return can't really be calculated until the reversion/sale when he's ready to cash out of that investment.

He has been paying on/aquiring these properties for 30 years. He says he will have them paid of in about 5 years. He also says he needs to take in $30k each month just to break even and that doesn't include maintanence.

My friend is getting hit from all angles. There is a serious glut in housing in and around the Bay City area, he's lost a shit ton of equity due to the housing market falling on it's face, He's had to lower his rent to put bodies in the buildings, and his tenents routinely destroy their living quarters because they are being evicted or are just all around douchbags.

I truely feel sorry for him. He would like to sell everything and get out of the business but he's trapped because nothing is selling right now.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 09:26 AM   #76
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My friend is getting hit from all angles. There is a serious glut in housing in and around the Bay City area, he's lost a shit ton of equity due to the housing market falling on it's face, He's had to lower his rent to put bodies in the buildings, and his tenents routinely destroy their living quarters because they are being evicted or are just all around douchbags.

I truely feel sorry for him. He would like to sell everything and get out of the business but he's trapped because nothing is selling right now.
we've all lost a shit-ton of equity due to the housing market, and/or lost money in 401's and/or other investments.

sometimes, part of business is knowing when to fold a bad investment. good friend of mine handed the keys to his 12,000 sq ft 3 tenant office building back to the bank when 2/3's of it went vacant, and he could no longer float the debt service on his own.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #77
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Old July 18th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #78
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Obama is simply a fucking idiot.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 05:31 PM   #79
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we've all lost a shit-ton of equity due to the housing market, and/or lost money in 401's and/or other investments.

sometimes, part of business is knowing when to fold a bad investment. good friend of mine handed the keys to his 12,000 sq ft 3 tenant office building back to the bank when 2/3's of it went vacant, and he could no longer float the debt service on his own.

I would guess my friend is down close to a mil in equity for all his properties. Things would help if his self entitled tennents would stop getting drunk and busting things up or at least pay their rent. He gets boned out of tens of thousands of dollars each year just from people skipping out. The only thing keeping his business going is his tenacity and the fact that he's a working machine.
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Old July 19th, 2012, 02:13 AM   #80
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Obama is simply a fucking idiot.
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