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Old July 16th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #41
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Correction...

None of this is paid for by Government. Its paid for by the taxpayers. Suggesting that we owe something to the Government for building something we paid for is asinine.
I understand that when we say “the government pays” that it means “the tax payers pay”. I didn’t feel the need to make that distinction, I figured everyone here was smart enough to understand that..

If we use infrastructure that the tax payers paid for, we owe it to our fellow taxpayers to pay our fair share to maintain and improve that infrastructure. Figuring out what that “fair share” is is the challenge.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #42
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The Government owes the people, not the other way around.
The Government owes you nothing, except to do with your tax dollars what it promised to do.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #43
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Following that same logic, than each of us as individuals are not really free. And none of us have gotten to wherever each of us are, under our own influence.

That speaks volumes about how large our Government really is. Keeping in mind the intent of our founding documents and that the first go around failed because they were to restrictive.

Also, how much Government involvement was there during the Industrial Revolution? Why is it during the last 100 years Government has grown while manufacturing has left? Our Country experienced its highest rate of growth during times when Government was less intrusive.
Yes, we are not really free.
Yes, none of us have gotten to where we are completely on our own. We used stuff that come before us.
I do not know how much government involvement in business there was early in the industrial revolution, but it could be argued “not enough”, which lead to later environmental problems and to the rise of unions.

I’m not sure exactly when our highest growth was, but some of our most prosperous time where when the top tax rates were much higher than now.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #44
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Who is going to invest to build this private road system? Where will you find workers that haven’t been educated in public schools? If you need police or fire protection who will you call? Hopefully you’re in a location where your can have a well and septic system so you don’t have to rely on a public water and sewage system. Hopefully you’ll never have a situation that requires the need of a legal system.
There has always been a sort of trails or road system. This wasnt an invention that came about because a politician thought of it. If they were all dirt a rutted, we would have vehicles that could travel them. A lot of the members here probably already have a vehilcle that could fit that purpose.

No public school? Those who were motivated and wanted to better themselves or their children would pay a private school These already exsist. No public water or septic system? Well and septic feild it is. Holy fukc . The legal system. The one thing that a local government should provide...

Is this an ideal world? Probably not. Does it mean buisness' would cease to exisit because they werent put into place?
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #45
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There has always been a sort of trails or road system. This wasnt an invention that came about because a politician thought of it. If they were all dirt a rutted, we would have vehicles that could travel them. A lot of the members here probably already have a vehilcle that could fit that purpose.

No public school? Those who were motivated and wanted to better themselves or their children would pay a private school These already exsist. No public water or septic system? Well and septic feild it is. Holy fukc . The legal system. The one thing that a local government should provide...

Is this an ideal world? Probably not. Does it mean buisness' would cease to exisit because they werent put into place?
Nobody said businesses would cease to exist without those things, just that businesses that use those things should help pay to maintain and improve them.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #46
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I’m not sure exactly when our highest growth was, but some of our most prosperous time where when the top tax rates were much higher than now.
a lot of it was during war, and post-war era's as well. think about the huge strides the middle class made during the 50s post-war era.

our explosive growth then was inspite of high tax rate policies, not because of them.

we had a huge amount of industry, and a huge amount of ex G.I.'s looking to provide for new families creating products that the rest of the bombed out world could not produce.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #47
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a lot of it was during war, and post-war era's as well. think about the huge strides the middle class made during the 50s post-war era.

our explosive growth then was inspite of high tax rate policies, not because of them.

we had a huge amount of industry, and a huge amount of ex G.I.'s looking to provide for new families creating products that the rest of the bombed out world could not produce.
How much of that war time growth and post-war growth was the result of government spending?

Massive programs during the war, like the Manhattan Project spurred huge investments in R&D which lead to all sorts of other production. What aloud the government to pay for that spending that fueled the growth? One might argue that it was the higher marginal tax rates at the time.

After the war, returning service members were buying houses and receiving a college education thanks to the Montgomery GI Bill. That same GI Bill, which heavily favors the subsidization of single family homes, along with Eisenhower's highway system, may have done more to spur suburban expansion and the growth of the middle class than any single government program before or after.

Continued defense spending during the Cold War and the space program, and the buildup of the military industrial complex, was all fueled by government policies and government spending.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #48
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The Government owes you nothing, except to do with your tax dollars what it promised to do.
Bullshit. The Government is there to serve the people (at least in principal). We are their bosses and we tell them whether we thought they did a good job serving us at election time. Lately this hasn't been working out so well because of massive political corruption and an appearent majority that feels the Government should be their meal ticket.

It will be a sad day in America if the Goverment comes out in the open with an agenda that no longer views voters as the force in charge and has no fear of repercussion from the public.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #49
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Nobody said businesses would cease to exist without those things, just that businesses that use those things should help pay to maintain and improve them.
We already do.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:05 PM   #50
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I suppose the question is.... why do taxes need to be raised more?
We all know that our government spends way to much. It's not thier money and they seem to find a way to be wasteful.
If the people were as irresponsible as our government is with our money then most families would be in serious trouble.....didn't this already happen? Aren't we still digging ourselves out a monster of a spending problem most Americans have in this country?
This country used to be a manufacturing country that made and bought mostly it's own products.
Were did we turn into a nation of consumers? and what caused that?
Actually, all good questions. I think taxes need to be raised because they are near all time lows. Spending should also be cut. As this chart shows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re...993_-_2008.png We are currently in a situation where taxes are low and expenditures are high. Both need adjustment so we don’t end up bankrupt.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:09 PM   #51
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Bullshit. The Government is there to serve the people (at least in principal). We are their bosses and we tell them whether we thought they did a good job serving us at election time. Lately this hasn't been working out so well because of massive political corruption and an appearent majority that feels the Government should be their meal ticket.

It will be a sad day in America if the Goverment comes out in the open with an agenda that no longer views voters as the force in charge and has no fear of repercussion from the public.
I'm sure those people agree with you that the govenmnet owes them something.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #52
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We already do.
Yep. So the discussion that needs to happen is not "should we..." but "how much should we..."
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #53
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our explosive growth then was inspite of high tax rate policies, not because of them.
With no proof either way it's just a matter of opinion. I disagree with yours.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #54
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How much of that war time growth and post-war growth was the result of government spending?

you tell me, we both know it's a chicken/egg discussion that can't be quantified and only loosely correlated.

Massive programs during the war, like the Manhattan Project spurred huge investments in R&D which lead to all sorts of other production. What aloud the government to pay for that spending that fueled the growth? One might argue that it was the higher marginal tax rates at the time.

Another could argue that it was the patriotism of war bonds, carried over into US Savings Bonds, and that perhaps some of that spending should have been curtailed since we also had a huge amount of intel. gained from captured German R&D.

After the war, returning service members were buying houses and receiving a college education thanks to the Montgomery GI Bill. That same GI Bill, which heavily favors the subsidization of single family homes, along with Eisenhower's highway system, may have done more to spur suburban expansion and the growth of the middle class than any single government program before or after.

touche', we'll never really know since it happened, but major metropolitan and "suburban city" areas also built up prior to the highway system - Detroit was exploding - Wife's grandfather remembered John R being a dirt road that they took to travel from Toledo up to the Hazel Park Race Track back in the day - today, some could argue that the interference of that highway system pushed the urban sprawl beyond what was sustainable - quite a few liberal think-tanks suggest that we should be raising fuel taxes to incentivize us to move back to those god forsaken cities...

Continued defense spending during the Cold War and the space program, and the buildup of the military industrial complex, was all fueled by government policies and government spending.
I understand your points, but also believe that private sector industrialized spending, can't be ignored - the entrepreneurial spirit is the core of our form of Government and economy.

Regardless, that type of spending also was for areas not typically favorable to the liberal viewpoint of bashing military spending typical of today's left or even leaning moderates - we were building stuff - not paying for people to stay home, or on the teat.

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Less than 20 percent of the money set aside for the 52–20 Club was distributed. Rather, most returning servicemen quickly found jobs or pursued higher education
was there unemployment benefits, and training opportunities? of course - in total roughly 8 million ex GI's took some form of training opportunity - countless others took advantage of zero pct interest mortgages, etc. - all stuff that SHOULD have happened for folks that were sucked into serving in World War 2. FDR wanted it extended to "poor people" - Congress said no, Military only.

Today's liberal wants everything for everyone, except the wealthy and successful. Attack ads. target capital gains low tax rates - remember, most of us don't have pensions, our investments have poofed, real estate values are a joke, and they appeal to voters with chants of "tax the wealthy" - conveniently dodging that they will also more than likely rape the savings of that very same baby boomer that is now retiring, and/or rape whatever pittance of an inheritance they might leave to some of us.

Today's liberal campaigned as a moderate, and a consortium builder, but clearly is not. They pledged transparency, and hide behind executive privilege. They pledged they would hold public hearings and debate a comprehensive healthcare reform, instead they passed a bill that nobody read that significantly increased the opportunity for waste and corruption through bigger Government, and really did little in terms of 'reform'. (ok, 26 year olds can stay on their parent's insurance, and pre-existing condition clauses are now more fair - do we really need a new huge agency, trillions of dollars, and nearly 3,000 pages of legislation soon to be followed by tens of thousands of pages of administrative law to implement those minor points?)

Perhaps some of us can't remember the good that can come from a common goal because it's been decades since either side truly sought to unite people.

Tax rates are, as Bruce pointed out at historic lows, however, the exponential exact opposite is true with regard to Government influence and regulations.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #55
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Actually, all good questions. I think taxes need to be raised because they are near all time lows. Spending should also be cut. As this chart shows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re...993_-_2008.png We are currently in a situation where taxes are low and expenditures are high. Both need adjustment so we don’t end up bankrupt.
we already are bankrupt - long ago we passed sustainable.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #56
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Correction...

None of this is paid for by Government. Its paid for by the taxpayers. Suggesting that we owe something to the Government for building something we paid for is asinine.
That could possibly be the best thing that has ever been posted on this website.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #57
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Here's the missed point:

Business and the citizenry benefit from infrastructure (roads, fire departments, police, military, schools, etc...).

That infrastructure was financed by taxes - taxes largely paid by businesses and the wealthy.

Or, in other words, business success financed the infrastructure, not the other way around. That's why you don't see quality infrastructure in Somalia, Zaire, Haiti, or the Congo.

And continued business success finances the upkeep and replacement / expansion / upgrading of that infrastructure.

The creation of capital drives the development of society - not the other way around.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 08:22 PM   #58
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If we use infrastructure that the tax payers paid for, we owe it to our fellow taxpayers to pay our fair share to maintain and improve that infrastructure. Figuring out what that “fair share” is is the challenge.
Whos not paying their fair share? The 51% that pay no federal income tax use the largest percentage of federal services.

Im down with the fair share sentiment, but lets apply it equally. If there is no intention of equal application, lets call it what it really is. Soak the rich, take it cause they have it, etc.

Along with our responsibility to maintain whats been built, its our Governments responsibility to not squander those monies. Problem reverts back to the 51%. The right gets blasted for voting for their own best interests. But in all reality, we are the minority voting block in this country.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 08:28 PM   #59
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Yes, we are not really free.
Yes, none of us have gotten to where we are completely on our own. We used stuff that come before us.
This is not an abnormality. But in underscores the bigger issue... We CANT do anything without being tied to Government in some way. That is the issue.

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I do not know how much government involvement in business there was early in the industrial revolution, but it could be argued “not enough”, which lead to later environmental problems and to the rise of unions.
This is a circular argument... I can not argue that the free market would have overcome these issue because it was not allowed to reach a state of equilibrium. While I see the merit in the argument that Government did good, the problem is it never stopped. Now we have hate crimes legislation and suffocation warnings on ziplock bags. The ends, IMO, do not justify the means.

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I’m not sure exactly when our highest growth was, but some of our most prosperous time where when the top tax rates were much higher than now.
Imagine what it could have been without the high taxation.....
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Old July 16th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #60
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Here's the missed point:

Business and the citizenry benefit from infrastructure (roads, fire departments, police, military, schools, etc...).

That infrastructure was financed by taxes - taxes largely paid by businesses and the wealthy.

Or, in other words, business success financed the infrastructure, not the other way around. That's why you don't see quality infrastructure in Somalia, Zaire, Haiti, or the Congo.

And continued business success finances the upkeep and replacement / expansion / upgrading of that infrastructure.

The creation of capital drives the development of society - not the other way around.
You don't see quality infrastructure and economic vitality in places like those that you listed because nations like that are too corrupt to foster any growth, which would in turn produce tax revenues. When you have such a corrupt government, and when the rule of law is taken for granted, when policies and laws can be changed instantly to benefit those in power, when elections are meaningless, there is no incentive for the private sector to innovate or produce.

This points out the fact that the relative stability of government in the United States and the fact that the private sector does not need to worry about the means of production and all of the resources being confiscated by the government and socialized to the degree that you would see in places like Zimbabwe, China, Azerbaijan, or Venezuela really is a big contributor and promoter of private sector growth.

If the private sector really could function without a government, you would see places like Somalia thriving. But that's obviously not the case. Somalia, hasn't had a functioning government in more than a decade. Yet, for some reason, no private firm has stepped in to provide the most needed public goods: education and infrastructure. The case study of Somalia just goes to show that there some goods and services that the government provides that benefit everybody that the private-sector is unwilling to provide on their own.

In the end, yes, the private sector pays the taxes that support the infrastructure, national security, education system, etc. But the government enacts policies that make that growth possible. It is a two way street.
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