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Old July 3rd, 2012, 11:23 PM   #61
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WOW. you found all that on healthcare.gov?
There's more. Thats only the tip of the iceburg.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #62
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There's more. Thats only the tip of the iceburg.
And you found it all on healthcare.gov?
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Old July 4th, 2012, 01:07 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by TJJEEP View Post
I am actually pretty confused about Obamacare and its effects. So right now there are 30 million uninsured people. These are people who do not qualify for Medicaid or Medicare, they are strictly uninsured. Starting in 2014 these people will be required to buy insurance? Is that really the major change this plan is going to bring? Will I continue to be able to get health insurance through my current and future employers? How is Medicaid and Medicare effected? Is there going to be a government plan offered?
If you have insurance available to you that you can afford you will be required to buy it or pay a fee/penalty/tax, which is supposed to help pay for the cost of providing medical care to the uninsured.

In theory you should still be able to get insurance through your employer, just as now. Some people are claiming that employers will quit offering medical insurance. I'm not sure why they think this.

Medicaid and Medicare will still exist, with changes. Likely these programs get expanded.

I think there will be government plans, but maybe not available to everyone. They may be needs based.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 01:39 AM   #64
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Does getting taxed for what your employer pays for your insurance still in the bill?
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Old July 4th, 2012, 01:56 AM   #65
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Does getting taxed for what your employer pays for your insurance still in the bill?
dunno. Here link to all 955 pages http://housedocs.house.gov/energycommerce/ppacacon.pdf

Let me know what you find.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:21 AM   #66
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If you have insurance available to you that you can afford you will be required to buy it or pay a fee/penalty/tax, which is supposed to help pay for the cost of providing medical care to the uninsured. In theory you should still be able to get insurance through your employer, just as now. Some people are claiming that employers will quit offering medical insurance. I'm not sure why they think this.
What if you can not afford insurance and your employer doesn't offer it?

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Medicaid and Medicare will still exist, with changes. Likely these programs get expanded.
In reality they will have to be expanded to cover all the folks that are now getting fined. Where else are folks that can not afford insurance going to go? However, wasn't one of the rulings the SC handed down that Medicare would not be expanded and doesn't the healthcare bill cut $500B from medicaid? I may have my medi's reversed...

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I think there will be government plans, but maybe not available to everyone. They may be needs based.
And the Government plans will be funded how?
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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:25 AM   #67
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I think those who are against this need to modify their argument. Since the SC ruled this is a tax and the primary role of taxes is to fund the Government, how will this new tax be funding the Government? The argument now turns, based solely on the SC ruling, an argument of the role of Government. If you believe that providing healthcare is not a proper role of Government, get the people in Government who think it is, out.

Keep in mind, it took a Constitutional Amendment to pass the income tax.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:46 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by WSU JK View Post
We spend the most of any nation on health care and don't have the best outcomes. We are not the best nation when it comes to life expectancy, infant mortality, cancer, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, etc. Something has to be done and I for one think this is a step in the right direction. Personally I would rather see a universal, single-payer system, but any small incremental step is an improvement.
Hard to argue with what you've said above... But it does need some qualifiers....

Money spent includes funds for testing and research. The US does a host of this both publicly and private. Ive no hard number, but Id wager more than other nations combined.

Life expectancy et.al. .... Thats the price we pay for being free. We are sovereign beings and as such we may not make the "right" decisions. But our foundation protects our ability to make that decision freely. This is one of the root issues at hand.

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I look at is an economic argument. We lose so much money to lost productivity each year because folks who may be working full time but do not have health insurance avoid seeing the doctor when they need to early on and wait until the last minute to go to the ER because they know they will get treated.
With an unemployment rate hovering close to 20%, I don't think missed work is an issue.

There are other Tax payer funded Government options other than showing up at the ER. We do not have a lack of coverage in the US, we have a lack of people utilizing the current system, and simply showing up at the ER.

I agree, preventative medicine is cheaper.

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At that point they are utilizing more services than they would have needed to if they would have just being able to get help early on which ends up costing the hospitals, health care organizations, and taxpayers more in the long run. Basically, we are going to end up paying for those who cannot pay for themselves one way or another, I'd rather do it early when it's less expensive, more efficient, and is easier to achieve healthier outcomes.
We do not need to revamp the current system to do that. Its already designed that way. We already pay for those who do not have coverage.

Healthcare costs are rising BECAUSE of Government involvement, not despite of it. Ive heard a few stories where local doctors wanting to provide free care or care at a set rate of $50 a month were closed down by the state for varying reasons. I take serious issue with the free market players coming up with options out of their own pocket and the state shutting them down and turning all the folks they could have helped, back to the gutter.

Side note but related..... How about the cities making it illegal to dispense free food to those that need it? Where are they suppose to go..... Government sanctioned kitchens.

Put simply.. TO MUCH GOVERNMENT. I, and many others, do not want our Government to be involved so deeply into everyones life. Our legislators, who have lost touch with what being an average Joe is all about, seem to think they know best what we need and will make us do it with threat of retaliation from the IRS.

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The arguments that nobody is going to want to become a doctor or existing doctors are just going to pack up and head to another country are just downright retarded. First, being a doctor is going to continue to be a very good career and many folks will continue to pursue it because they want to go into the profession because they want to make a difference (the vast majority of them I'm willing to wager).
Go ask a doctor right now how they like dealing with medicare and medicaid. It will not get better. Yes the majority of doctors enter the profession because they want to make a difference, but the reality is when they come out of med school with $100,000 to $200,000 of debt, the new Government dictated rate of pay is going to be an issue.

Which in and of itself, raises an even bigger issue... If the Government wanted to stem the majority of these issues, they would go after Colleges and Universities for their obscene tuition rates.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Second, where are existing doctors who don't like our system going to go to? Any industrialized nation that has patients that can afford to pay their desired fees already has universal healthcare or some sort of government mandated system in place. The nations that don't have that in place don't have the incomes to support the fees the doctors would be leaving here in search of.
Who says they will keep practicing?

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
As for the "Obama lied! He said this wasn't a tax!" argument - Tax? Fee? Penalty? It's all semantics. You've been paying taxes in the form of "fees" for years. Your license plate renewal fee is a tax. If you pay a fee for a building permit that's a tax.
It is all about semantics when wording laws. Our license fees fund the program. Building permit fees fund the program. Where is the money from healthcare penalties going to go? The original wording of the law was "mandate." It is unconstitutional to require any citizens to purchase anything. That is not the proper role of Government. Hence why you are seeing the right rise up, and Im sure youll see the left rise up soon, about it being passed as a tax. And Roberts essentially rewriting the law for Obama did not help.

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Will it be repealed if Romney gets elected? I doubt it. But if that's what our legislators really believe is best, than so be it. Personally, I hope if he does get elected in November and does attempt to repeal it, he offers some sort of replacement at the same time. I'll just have to wait and see.
Please do not be a complacent citizen willing to accept whatever our legislators feel is right and just. If you have convictions towards a particular issue, vote accordingly.

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Old July 4th, 2012, 08:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
If you have insurance available to you that you can afford you will be required to buy it or pay a fee/penalty/tax, which is supposed to help pay for the cost of providing medical care to the uninsured.

In theory you should still be able to get insurance through your employer, just as now. Some people are claiming that employers will quit offering medical insurance. I'm not sure why they think this.

Medicaid and Medicare will still exist, with changes. Likely these programs get expanded.

I think there will be government plans, but maybe not available to everyone. They may be needs based.
Here's why Bruce using my employer as an example. He wants his employees to have health care. Right now, the only way to assure it is to offer it through the company. I think he spends between $6-8K per employee right now x 100+ employees = somewhere in the neighborhood of $3/4 Million per year. So, what's the penalty for not offering it? I don't remember the number but it's way south of his current outlay.

Now, if he knew that the government was going to offer all of his employees quality health care for way less than what he is paying and all he has to do is pay the fine, why would he NOT pay the fine?
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Old July 4th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #70
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This was in an email sent to me. I have done ZERO research to see if it's true so I'm relying on all you experts to give an opinion.


YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE THIS...
At age 76 when you most need it, you are not eligible for cancer
Treatment
See page 272
What Nancy Pelosi didn't want us to know until after the healthcare
Bill was passed. Remember she said, "We have to pass the Bill in order to find out what's in it!!." Here it is!
______________________________
Obama Care Highlighted by Page Number
THE CARE BILL HB 3200


JUDGE KITHIL IS THE 2ND OFFICIAL WHO HAS OUTLINED THESE PARTS OF THE CARE BILL.
Judge Kithil of Marble Falls, TX - highlighted the
Most egregious pages
Of HB3200

Please read this........ Especially
The reference to pages 58 & 59


JUDGE KITHIL wrote:

**
Page 50/section 152: The bill will provide insurance to
All non-U.S. Residents, even if they are here illegally.

**
Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an
Individual's' bank account and will have the authority to make
Electronic fund transfers from those accounts.

**
Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the
Government) for all union members, union retirees and for
Community organizations (such as the Association
Of Community Organizations for Reform Now -
ACORN).

**
Page 203/line 14-15: The tax imposed under this section
Will not be treated as a tax. (How could anybody in their
Right mind come up with that?)

**
Page 241 and 253: Doctors will all be paid the same
Regardless of specialty, and the government will set all
Doctors''s fees.

**
Page 272. Section 1145: Cancer hospital will ration care
According to the patient's age.

**
Page 317 and 321: The government will impose a prohibition on
Hospital expansion; however, communities may petition for an
Exception.

**
Page 425, line 4-12: The government mandates advance-care
Planning consultations. Those on Social Security will be
Required to attend an "end-of-life planning" seminar every five
Years. (Death counseling..)

**
Page 429, line 13-25: The government will specify
Which doctors can write an end-of-life order.

HAD ENOUGH???? Judge Kithil then goes on to identify:

"Finally, it is specifically stated that this bill will not apply to
Members of Congress. Members of Congress are already
Exempt from the Social Security system, and have a well-funded
Private plan that covers their retirement needs. If they were on
Our Social Security plan, I believe they would find a very quick
'fix' to make the plan financially sound for their future."

- Honorable
David Kithil of Marble Falls , Texas

All of the above should
Give you the ammo you need to support your opposition to
Obamacare. Please send this information on to all of your email
Contacts.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 09:26 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
And you found it all on healthcare.gov?
I was being a little sarcastic. I did find it rather interesting that the day obamacare was passed I saw commercials on TV promoting the new and improved health system from healthcare.gov.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
If you have insurance available to you that you can afford you will be required to buy it or pay a fee/penalty/tax, which is supposed to help pay for the cost of providing medical care to the uninsured.

In theory you should still be able to get insurance through your employer, just as now. Some people are claiming that employers will quit offering medical insurance. I'm not sure why they think this.

Medicaid and Medicare will still exist, with changes. Likely these programs get expanded.
I think there will be government plans, but maybe not available to everyone. They may be needs based.
These will be totally eliminated, there will be no use for them. Everybody except the ones that recieved vouchers will be enrolled into this new system of healthcare.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 10:22 AM   #72
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Old July 4th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #73
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Another lesser known tidbit in the healthcare bill is the 3.8% transaction tax on profits above the capital gains limit.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #74
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Obama is the man !
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Old July 4th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #75
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Obama is the man !
I guess this is one way to kill a thread.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #76
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I was being a little sarcastic. I did find it rather interesting that the day obamacare was passed I saw commercials on TV promoting the new and improved health system from healthcare.gov.



These will be totally eliminated, there will be no use for them. Everybody except the ones that recieved vouchers will be enrolled into this new system of healthcare.
They will not be eliminated, they will be expanded. They are not going to create a whole new system, they are going to overburden the existing ones. Medicare and Medicaid is already government run health care.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 01:44 PM   #77
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They will not be eliminated, they will be expanded. They are not going to create a whole new system, they are going to overburden the existing ones. Medicare and Medicaid is already government run health care.
I think they will be eliminated as we know them as Medicare and Medicaid and lump them as one group under healthcare.gov. Which will probably be the worse than medicaid. Get ready for long wait times to see a doctor and as far as getting needed help for procedures.......we will wait and see how this turns out.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #78
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There is an interesting tax side to the SCOTUS decision. I heard one of the talking heads mention it within the first hour of the decision, but then nothing more until today from one of the services we subscribe to here at the office:

<<Under Code Sec. 5000A(g), the penalty for failing to carry health insurance “shall be paid upon notice and demand by the Secretary, and...shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as an assessable penalty” under Code Sec. 6671 through Code Sec. 6725. IRS will not be permitted to (i) file a notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty, or (ii) levy on any property of a taxpayer with respect to such a failure. (Code Sec. 5000A(g)(2)(B)) However, the authority to offset refunds or credits is not so limited. >>

They can tax/penalize you for not having insurance, but under the current law they have very few enforcement options. If you skip paying the IRS your annual income tax bill, they can get it from your employer as a garnishment, assess liens against your property, levy your bank account etc - they will get it unless you are the pizza delivery guy with no traceable income or assets. If you get assessed the "no insurance" tax/penalty, IRS can send you mean letters, withhold your refund or offset any tax credits, but they can't come get it. So how much power do they really have to enforce it?
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Old July 5th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #79
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Better make more room on Mt.Rushmore. Can't wait to see it with Obama up next to Teddy,Abe ,George , and Tom
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Old July 5th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #80
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There is an interesting tax side to the SCOTUS decision. I heard one of the talking heads mention it within the first hour of the decision, but then nothing more until today from one of the services we subscribe to here at the office:

<<Under Code Sec. 5000A(g), the penalty for failing to carry health insurance “shall be paid upon notice and demand by the Secretary, and...shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as an assessable penalty” under Code Sec. 6671 through Code Sec. 6725. IRS will not be permitted to (i) file a notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty, or (ii) levy on any property of a taxpayer with respect to such a failure. (Code Sec. 5000A(g)(2)(B)) However, the authority to offset refunds or credits is not so limited. >>

They can tax/penalize you for not having insurance, but under the current law they have very few enforcement options. If you skip paying the IRS your annual income tax bill, they can get it from your employer as a garnishment, assess liens against your property, levy your bank account etc - they will get it unless you are the pizza delivery guy with no traceable income or assets. If you get assessed the "no insurance" tax/penalty, IRS can send you mean letters, withhold your refund or offset any tax credits, but they can't come get it. So how much power do they really have to enforce it?
None. And thats by design. Its to keep the 51% dumb and to allow them to stay on the tit.
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