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Old May 25th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
Welcome to a religious discussion on GL4x4.
I experienced it many time with Aber61. This is the first time Iíve seen it from the non-religion side.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 11:53 PM   #442
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Marriage is already defined. Its the religious folk that wish to change it to "1 man, 1 woman."
As much as I hate to use this line. That's your opinion. It hasn't always been "any two couples, no matter Orientation". It's been One man and one Women for thousands of years. We are not trying to change it but are questioning why it needs to be changed and why the government can't get rid of the word Marriage and use something completely different? And I really haven't gotten an answer except "Well it's defined differently already". When, it obviously is not. Heck, I can look up the definition in my dictionary and it will be one thing, In yours it will be something different. Furthermore, If it was truly defined do you think it would be such an issue?

And to take the route of SO many people, mostly on the other side of the table as me in this debate, Not all people that are against this are Religious. There are people that have nothing to do with A faith but still have a marriage and don't want to change the definition of that.


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. < my point ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~>you

Further discussion is futile.
I got it, And I enjoyed to see someone that either understood what I said before, or had the same thought process. I was all excited to read your post and then Dashed when nobody Got it.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 01:43 AM   #443
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I want to marry myself. Shit, that's a same sex marriage.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #444
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I want to marry myself. Shit, that's a same sex marriage.
This woman did.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/847...arries-herself
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Old May 26th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #445
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As much as I hate to use this line. That's your opinion.
Correct. It is my opinion.

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It hasn't always been "any two couples, no matter Orientation". It's been One man and one Women for thousands of years.
Based on......?

I know Brewman thinks I did not get his point... Perhaps I didn't. It appears he was trying to make the point that because one religion may dictate things to be a certain way, that's just the way its going to be.

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We are not trying to change it but are questioning why it needs to be changed and why the government can't get rid of the word Marriage and use something completely different?
I know Ive been avoiding agreeing with you, mainly cause if I did the discussion would end. But I do agree that Government has no business defining any union between 2 people aside from recognizing it in the eyes of legalities like spousal benefits and rights.

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Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
And I really haven't gotten an answer except "Well it's defined differently already". When, it obviously is not. Heck, I can look up the definition in my dictionary and it will be one thing, In yours it will be something different. Furthermore, If it was truly defined do you think it would be such an issue?
Perhaps...

"Why" its an issue gets to, IMO, the root of one of many major problems in our country. To many people wanting to dictate how others live their lives.

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And to take the route of SO many people, mostly on the other side of the table as me in this debate, Not all people that are against this are Religious. There are people that have nothing to do with A faith but still have a marriage and don't want to change the definition of that.
I realize this. But the non religious folk are not approaching this issue from a religious stance. I appreciate your stance because you simply dont want Government to be involved at all. Folks like Aber wants it dictated by his Bible and that makes the hair on my neck stand up. Just as he is free to practice his religion, I am free to be free from the confines of his religion.

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I got it, And I enjoyed to see someone that either understood what I said before, or had the same thought process. I was all excited to read your post and then Dashed when nobody Got it.
I feel like the fat kid playing duck duck goose and Im always a duck.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 11:44 AM   #446
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I know Brewman thinks I did not get his point... Perhaps I didn't. It appears he was trying to make the point that because one religion may dictate things to be a certain way, that's just the way its going to be.
You could hardly have missed my point worse.

My point, cliff notes version:
1)Nearly every religion and/or society has some version of male-female pair bonding i.e. marriage.

2)This pair bonding either came from:
a)(if there is a god) rules handed down from god, or
b)(if there is no god) from the rules of society that evolved along with the human species.

3)This pair bonding developed as a means to keep parents together to more effectively raise children to adulthood and evolved in parallel with humansí development into an intelligent being that required a long period of development into adulthood.

4)The word that we use for this male-female pair bonding, marriage, has its origins in describing this pair bonding.

Summary: The origins of the concept of marriage as well as the word marriage itself are deeply rooted in the origins of the human species and are as old as mankind itself.

Conclusion: The reason there is so much resistance to the acceptance of gay marriage is because the concept of marriage being a male-female pair bonding is so deeply rooted in the psyche of the human species.

If the accepting of same sex pair bonding as identical to opposite sex pair bonding by society as a whole is the goal and nothing less is acceptable, they have a long road ahead and itís a road that I have no desire to help them travel.

If the goal is to get the governments to recognize that the bond they share is not substantially different than that of an opposite sex pair bond and so the laws should apply equally to both, they have my full support.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #447
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You could hardly have missed my point worse.
Possible.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
My point, cliff notes version:
1)Nearly every religion and/or society has some version of male-female pair bonding i.e. marriage.
I have not argued to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
2)This pair bonding either came from:
a)(if there is a god) rules handed down from god, or
b)(if there is no god) from the rules of society that evolved along with the human species.
I have not argued to the contrary.

However, its mainly the religious side opposed to same sex marriage. Sure there are some non religious folks that wish for marriage to be defined as 1 man 1 woman. While I would not support them any more than I do not support the religious side trying to prevent same sex marriage, I appreciate their stance more because they are not trying to push their religious beliefs onto others.

Based on the founding of our Country, its history and such, ANY attempt to legislate from the bible is a slippery slope that I will fight at any given chance.

I am in no way suggesting I wish to prevent anyone from practicing their religion, so long as they do not push those religious beliefs onto others.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
3)This pair bonding developed as a means to keep parents together to more effectively raise children to adulthood and evolved in parallel with humansí development into an intelligent being that required a long period of development into adulthood.
I have not argued to the contrary. I do agree with this line of thought.

If I read correctly, this is how its spelled out in the bible.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
4)The word that we use for this male-female pair bonding, marriage, has its origins in describing this pair bonding.
Ok... If that is the argument Im good with that. But keep God out of your argument if this is the stance you (speaking in generalities) are going to take.

i.e. "Im against same sex marriage because marriage has long been seen as the union between men and woman."

Not "my God says homosexuality is wrong and they should not be allowed to marry." If this is ones belief, fine. I have no issue with that. Its the attempt to legislate this belief, based on scripture, that I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Summary: The origins of the concept of marriage as well as the word marriage itself are deeply rooted in the origins of the human species and are as old as mankind itself.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Conclusion: The reason there is so much resistance to the acceptance of gay marriage is because the concept of marriage being a male-female pair bonding is so deeply rooted in the psyche of the human species.
I partially agree here. Most of the push against same sex marriage comes from the religious folk. That is the core basis of my argument/stance which is why I did not connect with what you were saying.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
If the accepting of same sex pair bonding as identical to opposite sex pair bonding by society as a whole is the goal and nothing less is acceptable, they have a long road ahead and itís a road that I have no desire to help them travel.
Not sure they are looking for help, just equal treatment under the law. We all have a protected right to pursue our own happiness.

I also do not believe for 1 second they are looking for social acceptance of their life choices. Merely equal treatment under the law.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
If the goal is to get the governments to recognize that the bond they share is not substantially different than that of an opposite sex pair bond and so the laws should apply equally to both, they have my full support.
IMO, this is all they are after.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 08:10 PM   #448
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I think all homosexuals are after is a recognized bond, so that in the case of one dies they can have control over the estate, share insurance, etc.

It would suck if you spent your whole life with someone that you cared about and it was never recognized beyond a simple friendship.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #449
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Old May 26th, 2012, 11:25 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by opie View Post
Possible.



I have not argued to the contrary.



I have not argued to the contrary.

However, its mainly the religious side opposed to same sex marriage. Sure there are some non religious folks that wish for marriage to be defined as 1 man 1 woman. While I would not support them any more than I do not support the religious side trying to prevent same sex marriage, I appreciate their stance more because they are not trying to push their religious beliefs onto others.

Based on the founding of our Country, its history and such, ANY attempt to legislate from the bible is a slippery slope that I will fight at any given chance.

I am in no way suggesting I wish to prevent anyone from practicing their religion, so long as they do not push those religious beliefs onto others.



I have not argued to the contrary. I do agree with this line of thought.

If I read correctly, this is how its spelled out in the bible.



Ok... If that is the argument Im good with that. But keep God out of your argument if this is the stance you (speaking in generalities) are going to take.

i.e. "Im against same sex marriage because marriage has long been seen as the union between men and woman."

Not "my God says homosexuality is wrong and they should not be allowed to marry." If this is ones belief, fine. I have no issue with that. Its the attempt to legislate this belief, based on scripture, that I take issue with.



I agree.



I partially agree here. Most of the push against same sex marriage comes from the religious folk. That is the core basis of my argument/stance which is why I did not connect with what you were saying.



Not sure they are looking for help, just equal treatment under the law. We all have a protected right to pursue our own happiness.

I also do not believe for 1 second they are looking for social acceptance of their life choices. Merely equal treatment under the law.



IMO, this is all they are after.
Damn it, why'd you have to go agreeing with me. Now who am I supposed to argue with.
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Old May 27th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #451
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Damn it, why'd you have to go agreeing with me. Now who am I supposed to argue with.
wait... Disregard my last post.

Discuss,
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Old May 27th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #452
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I checked my dictionary. This is what it said:
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Old May 28th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #453
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Doing good till it got to the part about God.
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Old May 28th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #454
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Doing good till it got to the part about God.
I guess if God said it, it must be true
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Old May 29th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #455
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I guess if God said it, it must be true
I sure am glad our justice system is not based on the bible and what God has said.

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Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock
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They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman
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If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #456
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First Gay Marriage in History - YouTube


I think all homosexuals are after is a recognized bond, so that in the case of one dies they can have control over the estate, share insurance, etc.
some might be. rest assured a lot of them are not going to accept a "recognized bond" or "civil union".
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Old May 29th, 2012, 09:07 PM   #457
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I sure am glad our justice system is not based on the bible and what God has said.
Sigh . . . thanks for the old testament update once again. How's the trout in Tellico by the way??
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Old May 30th, 2012, 04:09 AM   #458
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Sigh . . . thanks for the old testament update once again. How's the trout in Tellico by the way??
Oh, I forgot. Society changed so you guys rewrote the bible.



In any event, that was a direct response to Abers comment. Clearly you can see the idiocy? Or is it your contention those verses from the Bible were not Gods will.

Last edited by opie; May 30th, 2012 at 04:13 AM.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 07:01 AM   #459
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I sure am glad our justice system is not based on the bible and what God has said.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your niebour as yourself.
Old Testament vs New Testament. You really need to learn to understand the difference. Many times I see people that do not understand the bible tend to use the old testament as a tool to prove God is a bad God and is only out to get us. Try and study the New Testament.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #460
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Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your niebour as yourself.
Old Testament vs New Testament. You really need to learn to understand the difference. Many times I see people that do not understand the bible tend to use the old testament as a tool to prove God is a bad God and is only out to get us. Try and study the New Testament.
So some definitions changed while others did not. Got it.

I never said your God is a bad God. Some of the views can be a bit hypocritical IMO.

What if your neighbor(s) are homosexuals that want to get married? You are commanded to love them.

Im not sure I understand the desire of the religious folk to denounce the OT, considering it is still the word of God. In place of the NT which appears to be a bit more socially friendly. In any event...

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One final comment: since all people have sinned against God (Rom. 3:23) all people are under the judgment of God. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), so when God executes someone it is not murder, it is killing because it is a lawful taking of life. Remember, all people have sinned. Sin is the breaking of God's law. Therefore, God's execution is lawful.
Nice.
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