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Old May 22nd, 2012, 10:00 PM   #61
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I never see people post pictures of the long crawl to the left of the tubes (while you are looking UP). Did you guys run it while you were there?
Yes we ran everything in the area
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 10:27 PM   #62
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If you bring rocks to this course and I am there I will help you unload them!
I will see what my grandpa's have laying around from years of farm work. I might be able to donate some. No fund requests when you ask farmers to have few off the heaping rock piles in the back row. Hell everyone get one rock from a farmer and just bring it up with you when you wheel.

I do like the idea that kickstand brought up about using poles to keep some of the rocks contained. Last I knew it was working decently well on the Potowatomi trail. I haven't seen the trail in probably 8 years or so though.

I know this is an expensive idea but I will throw it out anyways. What about sinking boulders into concrete spaced far apart and using some smaller rocks and sand to fill the gaps. Concrete holds boulders in place and will not erode.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 07:33 AM   #63
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I will see what my grandpa's have laying around from years of farm work. I might be able to donate some. No fund requests when you ask farmers to have few off the heaping rock piles in the back row. Hell everyone get one rock from a farmer and just bring it up with you when you wheel.

I do like the idea that kickstand brought up about using poles to keep some of the rocks contained. Last I knew it was working decently well on the Potowatomi trail. I haven't seen the trail in probably 8 years or so though.

I know this is an expensive idea but I will throw it out anyways. What about sinking boulders into concrete spaced far apart and using some smaller rocks and sand to fill the gaps. Concrete holds boulders in place and will not erode.
Poto isn't the only place, and yes, even in sandy soil it works well.

I can't remember where this was built, but there was a fair amount of armoring done to the trail as well, there was a write up somewhere, but now I can't find it and I'm not in the mood to take the time to find it. But the same concept was used here. Obviously on a smaller scale, though I am sure I would have had a blast on these bad boys with my jeep.



Using a technique like this creates a "sustainable" trail which will lower maintenance, erosion, etc. It's a "big deal" in the mountain bike world, Poto has had numerous re-routes to fix areas that were not sustainable and eroded (according to smart people anything more than an 8% grade is not sustainable in our soil due to erosion) the same just recently happened out at pontiac lake. Sure you don't get as many steep hill climbs or decents, but you get a trail that makes the DNR happy because it doesn't cause damage to the land.

As I am learning more about that on the MTB side, I am surprised there isn't more talk of it on public lands for the jeep side.

Most of the trail work I have seen for ORV's includes trimming trees and cleaning up garbage, very rarely have I heard of re-routes, trail repair, erosion control, etc. Which surprises me, because it would be a good way to keep things open rather than just have them closed down.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:20 AM   #64
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The force created by a powered stickie tire is far greater than I ever imagined. We used posts and logs at the Mounds and some of them were ripped loose almost immediately. I have had a tire grab a boulder the size of a refrigerator and move it. I can't imagine any way of holding a rock on a slope other than the sheer size of the rock and a firm rock base down below it. Of the places I have wheeled, only those with rocks the size of cars don't move.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:35 AM   #65
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If you bring rocks to this course and I am there I will help you unload them!
I would help also with enough notice.

Years ago there were some rocks placed at Gladwin Ice Carnival, where they use to have the bud bogs. I am pretty sure they are still there and covered by tall grass. My dad has a house across the street. That propety is now owned by Billings Township. Is there anyway to get those rocks out of there and moved up to St. Helen?

Obviously it would be a volunteer thing to move them. Should I call the township or would it look better if someone from GLFWDA called?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:37 AM   #66
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if you bring rocks to this course and i am there i will help you unload them!
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:43 AM   #67
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The force created by a powered stickie tire is far greater than I ever imagined. We used posts and logs at the Mounds and some of them were ripped loose almost immediately. I have had a tire grab a boulder the size of a refrigerator and move it. I can't imagine any way of holding a rock on a slope other than the sheer size of the rock and a firm rock base down below it. Of the places I have wheeled, only those with rocks the size of cars don't move.
yeah I have seen some jeeps move some big ass rocks, no doubt about it.

You're always going to have some movement.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:43 AM   #68
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oh, and nice pics rob, I saw that black jeep sitting on a trailer out in front of runci's shop monday night, looks like a nice jeep
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:08 AM   #69
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I would help also with enough notice.

Years ago there were some rocks placed at Gladwin Ice Carnival, where they use to have the bud bogs. I am pretty sure they are still there and covered by tall grass. My dad has a house across the street. That propety is now owned by Billings Township. Is there anyway to get those rocks out of there and moved up to St. Helen?

Obviously it would be a volunteer thing to move them. Should I call the township or would it look better if someone from GLFWDA called?
Those rocks are owned by GLFWDA. We considered moving them to St. Helen and discovered the cost to move them was more than the cost to have new rocks delivered. The cost to move heavy equipment there to load the trucks, the cost to transport the rocks and the cost to move the heavy equipment away from there was offset by the purchase price from the rock quary. If someone wants to volunteer to provide equipment to load and transport them, I'm all for it. But there's still the logistics of getting the state to approve it.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:20 AM   #70
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Is there anything in the works for more rocks?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:43 AM   #71
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Paul Hittie has been talking with the DNR about additional projects and maintenance. I can't give a current update.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:50 AM   #72
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I have been there a few times now and have noticed the changes but watching a few go up the ledges you can understand how the rocks are moving so quickly. That skinny pedal is the only way it seems to get up there once your at that point and backing up is just as hard. This is also causing the runs to get wider cause the easy lines are just off the rocks.

Looking at how narrow the runs started and how they are now, I also understand how there getting wider.

Many of the people trying the rocks are just like me, new to the sport, and run in to problems. Its not like there have been many places to try this out prior to St.Helen on public lands.

My first run I broke and got stuck in the middle of the run to the far left of the tubes. There looked like there was a run off that got blocked that would have been perfect to get me out but it was blocked by a pile of trees. I spent hours backing it back down a few feet at a time. I didn't want to make a trail, cause that would ruin the run, but not everyone thinks like me.

I think everyone is complaining about something that there is little control over. Not everyone thinks of how your going to leave something for other to use.

I understand that if the runs get to hard no one will use them, but if they all stay easy with the rocks where you would like them none of the larger rigs will use them and that can lead to less wanting to go there.

I think that before large sums of monies are spent on replacing the rocks and rebuilding the trails, maybe there should be a sign put up saying something simple like "Please enjoy the area but please try to leave it how you found it for other to enjoy". Sometimes a $20 sign reminding people works best.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:52 AM   #73
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oh, and nice pics rob, I saw that black jeep sitting on a trailer out in front of runci's shop monday night, looks like a nice jeep
Thanks bud.........that's my jeep
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:01 AM   #74
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I have been there a few times now and have noticed the changes but watching a few go up the ledges you can understand how the rocks are moving so quickly. That skinny pedal is the only way it seems to get up there once your at that point and backing up is just as hard. This is also causing the runs to get wider cause the easy lines are just off the rocks.

Looking at how narrow the runs started and how they are now, I also understand how there getting wider.

Many of the people trying the rocks are just like me, new to the sport, and run in to problems. Its not like there have been many places to try this out prior to St.Helen on public lands.

My first run I broke and got stuck in the middle of the run to the far left of the tubes. There looked like there was a run off that got blocked that would have been perfect to get me out but it was blocked by a pile of trees. I spent hours backing it back down a few feet at a time. I didn't want to make a trail, cause that would ruin the run, but not everyone thinks like me.

I think everyone is complaining about something that there is little control over. Not everyone thinks of how your going to leave something for other to use.

I understand that if the runs get to hard no one will use them, but if they all stay easy with the rocks where you would like them none of the larger rigs will use them and that can lead to less wanting to go there.

I think that before large sums of monies are spent on replacing the rocks and rebuilding the trails, maybe there should be a sign put up saying something simple like "Please enjoy the area but please try to leave it how you found it for other to enjoy". Sometimes a $20 sign reminding people works best.

They will change over time. Simple as that. Care and respect will help but not stop an ever changing landscape.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:04 AM   #75
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I would be afraid to show up there with a truck load of rocks and try to drop them - might get a ticket for littering!

Seriously though we have recently opened a dialogue with the DNR about a long-term plan for maintenance for the rocks, but very early in the process so nothing really to report other than to let you know they know there is a problem but they need to formulate a plan since this is something new for them. I have not made a trip out to the Mounds yet this spring to see how the Woodlands course faired over the mild winter, but I assume at some point DNR and GCP will need to take a look at maintenance there too, although since the land is flat the biggest problem will be settling, like the Phase 2 pile has done over the last few years.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:09 AM   #76
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Sidebar about the Mounds. We discussed reviewing the layout after a year to determine what has seen use and what rocks ended up just laying in the woods because no one used them. Quite honestly, there are some very hard technical lines that I don't think anyone has tried yet. I'll be there on the 16th and see how it looks. Paul, maybe you can bring your rig to give it a whirl.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:22 AM   #77
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Thanks bud.........that's my jeep
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:09 PM   #78
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I would be afraid to show up there with a truck load of rocks and try to drop them - might get a ticket for littering!

Seriously though we have recently opened a dialogue with the DNR about a long-term plan for maintenance for the rocks, but very early in the process so nothing really to report other than to let you know they know there is a problem but they need to formulate a plan since this is something new for them. I have not made a trip out to the Mounds yet this spring to see how the Woodlands course faired over the mild winter, but I assume at some point DNR and GCP will need to take a look at maintenance there too, although since the land is flat the biggest problem will be settling, like the Phase 2 pile has done over the last few years.
If glfwda can get approval to move the rocks from GIC to St. Helens, I have to imagine we could organize something to get them moved without spending thousands of dollars.

Maybe i am a bit to optimistic, but there has to be people with large equipment that also have a interest in offroading. I would be willing to help organize the movement if glfwda can get the approval.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:14 PM   #79
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Sidebar about the Mounds. We discussed reviewing the layout after a year to determine what has seen use and what rocks ended up just laying in the woods because no one used them. Quite honestly, there are some very hard technical lines that I don't think anyone has tried yet. I'll be there on the 16th and see how it looks. Paul, maybe you can bring your rig to give it a whirl.
I'll be there on the 16th too, but I think I may still wait a year or two for the new course to "settle" some. I wouldn't want my massive horsepower and unbelievably sticky tires to roll anything away prematurely
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:20 PM   #80
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If glfwda can get approval to move the rocks from GIC to St. Helens, I have to imagine we could organize something to get them moved without spending thousands of dollars.

Maybe i am a bit to optimistic, but there has to be people with large equipment that also have a interest in offroading. I would be willing to help organize the movement if glfwda can get the approval.
By the time we overcome administrative hassles (ie government rules & associated b.s.) it would be easier to start fresh and let the DNR buy and ship the rocks. Everything used in a state project has to meet a series of requirements, and trying to add something to a state project from outside of their procurement process is difficult. The good news is that after the original St Helen rock fundraiser, we learned a lot more about how we can interact with the DNR in a cooperative effort, and that basically means cash.
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