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Old March 27th, 2012, 11:13 AM   #41
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Old March 27th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
Since we are playing the what if game.

What if Z confronted the kid and said, "Are you the little "insert racial slur here" breaking into houses?"(not the right thing to do, wrong to talk shit, but nothing illegal about that to my knowledge). Kid then proceeds to beat Z's ass(illegal, assault) and depending on what kind of pussy Z is could be considered a threat to his life. Z, fearing for his life shoots the kid.(legal in the state of michigan at least to use deadly force).

To me that seems like criminally he would be not guilty, but probably opens up for a wrongful death civil lawsuit?

Now, what if Z confronted the kid and said, "Are you the little "insert racial slur here" breaking into houses?", and tried to physically restrain him(seems like we are talking some assault there). The kid defends himself, pulls away, etc... Then a scuffle breaks out. Z goes pussy mode and pops the kid.

To me that seems like that may end up being murder because he initiated the altercation.

Wit no witnesses, it seems to come down to the story of Z and a dead kid.

Either way, at this point, given the current facts, or rather lack thereof, I'd imagine a jury is going to have a hard time convicting him beyond a reasonable doubt. If that happens I'm pretty sure that town is going to burn...
Maybe not illegal but a good prosecuter could probably have a field day with this. Confronting someone in an agressive manner while carrying a weapon is a lot different than confronting someone without carrying a weapon. He knows he has an edge and can be painted as a cowboy.

For me, as a CPL holder, while not knowing all the facts, I find it interesting that I tend to side with the kid. By the published recordings, Z saw the kid before the kid saw him. Z followed him. This leads me to believe Z had a swaggar to him that helped to escalate the situation. Again, he has no duty to retreat but it certainly sounds like he could have avoided the confrontation. During my CPL class it was stressed that as a person carrying a weapon, we should be more aware of our surroundings and make an effort to avoid situations that can turn bad. Doesn't sound like Z heeded this advice.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 11:26 AM   #43
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Maybe not illegal but a good prosecuter could probably have a field day with this. Confronting someone in an agressive manner while carrying a weapon is a lot different than confronting someone without carrying a weapon. He knows he has an edge and can be painted as a cowboy.
I'm sure they will. But I don't think, and I'm no lawyer by any means, that just confronting him and not starting the physical altercation(total assumption at this point) makes it a murder verdict though.

That's where I think he skates on the jail time, but gets drug over the coals in civil court for wrongful death. It seems like those cases always go for the emotional win.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 11:36 AM   #44
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Is this the real Travon?

http://networkedblogs.com/vGeR1
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Old March 27th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #45
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From what I've heard, the "Small kid" is supposed to be 6'0" and 200lbs now.
Probably less than that now, at least after being embalmed.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #46
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Here are some facts:

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html

Of all juveniles (individuals under the age of 18) arrested in 2009 in the Nation, 65.9 percent were white, 31.3 percent were black, and 2.8 percent were of other races.

Black juveniles accounted for 51.6 percent of juvenile arrests for violent crimes.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 12:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Maybe not illegal but a good prosecuter could probably have a field day with this. Confronting someone in an agressive manner while carrying a weapon is a lot different than confronting someone without carrying a weapon. He knows he has an edge and can be painted as a cowboy.

For me, as a CPL holder, while not knowing all the facts, I find it interesting that I tend to side with the kid. By the published recordings, Z saw the kid before the kid saw him. Z followed him. This leads me to believe Z had a swaggar to him that helped to escalate the situation. Again, he has no duty to retreat but it certainly sounds like he could have avoided the confrontation. During my CPL class it was stressed that as a person carrying a weapon, we should be more aware of our surroundings and make an effort to avoid situations that can turn bad. Doesn't sound like Z heeded this advice.
From a technical standpoint I agree with your post.

Now, let's say Z did initiate contact, asked T-Dawg what he was doing in the wrong hood, T-Dawg got all yo dawg I'm mindin my own business walkin all thug like with my hoodie up in yo hood and what the fukc you gonna do about it,

T-dawg relax, I'm just out on neighborhood watch and didn't recognize you....

No you relax you racist mutha fucka, I'ma beat yo ass

T-dawg now beats the shit out of Z, Z shoots him as he was fearing his life.

You see, that's the exact same story you posted, but from a different perspective.

I mean, punk ass 17 year old kids of any race are never argumentative, bigger than the world or confrontational when someone questions them, right?

I have no idea what happened, all I know is that I don't know T, I don't know Z, and I'm guessing it won't affect my life much.

Last edited by kickstand; March 27th, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 12:39 PM   #48
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I have no idea what happened, all I know is that I don't know T, I don't know Z, and I'm guessing it won't affect my life much.
Total agreement.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
From a technical standpoint I agree with your post.

Now, let's say Z did initiate contact, asked T-Dawg what he was doing in the wrong hood, T-Dawg got all yo dawg I'm mindin my own business walkin all thug like with my hoodie up in yo hood and what the fukc you gonna do about it,

T-dawg relax, I'm just out on neighborhood watch and didn't recognize you....

No you relax you racist mutha fucka, I'ma beat yo ass

T-dawg now beats the shit out of Z, Z shoots him as he was fearing his life.

You see, that's the exact same story you posted, but from a different perspective.

I mean, punk ass 17 year old kids of any race are never argumentative, bigger than the world or confrontational when someone questions them, right?

I have no idea what happened, all I know is that I don't know T, I don't know Z, and I'm guessing it won't affect my life much.
After watching Al Sharpton, the Detroit City Council, and many episodes of Hardcore Pawn I have to believe this very well could have been how it went down.

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Old March 27th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #50
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I have read a bunch of the news stories related to the incident. I think it's too early to draw a conclusion in the case. I believe they have people who are paid to determine whether this in fact was a crime or not. The problem is that this is an incident that can and did cause national headlines so depending on what article you read, it has a different spin. It is impossible to draw a factual conclusion so everyone is drawing the conclusion that their mind is already set to believe. For example, for some people it's racism and for other people it's a thug who got what was coming.
I think that the lawyer Zimmerman got to represent him is only making him look worse based on the interviews that I saw. I also think it's sad that some outlets are trying to make the kid seem like a villian based on the fact that he has tattoos and all of the crap that most of the youth are doing these days.
I listened to the 911 calls and I think they are damning for Z. In a neighborhood watch aren't you supposed to observe and report? By his own calls you can tell that he is pursuing the kid against the advice of the 911 operator. My current opinion is that if Z had listened to the 911 operator this whole situation would have been avoided. The Z camp said yesterday that they were going to release evidence that the conclusion I have drawn is incorrect, so I am waiting to see.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #51
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My current opinion is that if Z had listened to the 911 operator this whole situation would have been avoided.
this^
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Old March 27th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #52
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I also think it's sad that some outlets are trying to make the kid seem like a villian based on the fact that he has tattoos and all of the crap that most of the youth are doing these days.
But he haz grill

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Old March 27th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Maybe not illegal but a good prosecuter could probably have a field day with this. Confronting someone in an agressive manner while carrying a weapon is a lot different than confronting someone without carrying a weapon. He knows he has an edge and can be painted as a cowboy.

For me, as a CPL holder, while not knowing all the facts, I find it interesting that I tend to side with the kid. By the published recordings, Z saw the kid before the kid saw him. Z followed him. This leads me to believe Z had a swaggar to him that helped to escalate the situation. Again, he has no duty to retreat but it certainly sounds like he could have avoided the confrontation. During my CPL class it was stressed that as a person carrying a weapon, we should be more aware of our surroundings and make an effort to avoid situations that can turn bad. Doesn't sound like Z heeded this advice.
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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
From a technical standpoint I agree with your post.

Now, let's say Z did initiate contact, asked T-Dawg what he was doing in the wrong hood, T-Dawg got all yo dawg I'm mindin my own business walkin all thug like with my hoodie up in yo hood and what the fukc you gonna do about it,

T-dawg relax, I'm just out on neighborhood watch and didn't recognize you....

No you relax you racist mutha fucka, I'ma beat yo ass

T-dawg now beats the shit out of Z, Z shoots him as he was fearing his life.

You see, that's the exact same story you posted, but from a different perspective.

I mean, punk ass 17 year old kids of any race are never argumentative, bigger than the world or confrontational when someone questions them, right?

I have no idea what happened, all I know is that I don't know T, I don't know Z, and I'm guessing it won't affect my life much.
My time spent working in fast food restaurants many years ago, and my experience dealing with pseudo-law enforcement types over the years make it easy for me to believe the worst parts of both these scenarios.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #54
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My time spent working in fast food restaurants many years ago, and my experience dealing with pseudo-law enforcement types over the years make it easy for me to believe the worst parts of both these scenarios.
My time spent living for the last 30+ years makes it really easy for me to agree with you and see that either scenario is 100% possible.

How much respect does a thug get?
How much respect does a rent-a-cop get?

Can go either way.

Disrespect a thug and he kicks your ass or at least attempts to. Disrespect a rent a cop and he typically abuses his power/authority.

Chicken, egg....kettle pot.....we'll lilely never know.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #55
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Report: Zimmerman told police teen punched him before shooting

On Monday, more questions arose in the already murky case, with Sanford police confirming the details of an Orlando Sentinel report, which cited unnamed authorities saying Zimmerman told them Martin punched him in the nose after the two exchanged words.

Police said Monday the Sentinel account is "consistent with the information provided to the State Attorney's office by the police department." The newspaper reported that Zimmerman said Martin then repeatedly punched him and slammed his head into the sidewalk.

Previously released tapes of 911 calls included neighbors saying they had heard screams -- though it wasn't clear whether they came from Zimmerman or Martin.

Two women who live nearby have said they heard "a whining, someone in distress, and then the gunshot."

Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, told CNN Monday that they ran outside. "Within seconds," they were about 10 feet away from Martin's body, Lamilla said.

"(Zimmerman) was standing over the body, basically straddling the body with his hand on Trayvon's back," said Cutcher, adding that they called three times to him before he finally asked them to call police. "It didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way."

When police arrived, Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass (and he) was also bleeding, from the nose and back of his head," according to a police report.

Police have not released Cutcher's official police statement, but have said her statements to them were consistent with Zimmerman's account.

The story from CNN today
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Old March 27th, 2012, 02:06 PM   #56
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z should have never left the car!
his job is to observe only!

he is screwed, and probably deserves it.

i predict he will enjoy prison!
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Old March 27th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #57
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It didn't go national until weeks after it happened. At the time, it was obvious to police that it was a self-defense scenario, and maybe they didn't have all the facts but the fact that Zimmerman was bloody and having looked like he was attacked definitely played into that.

Once the race card players and liberal media got ahold of the story, it has gotten so twisted to change what really happened.

At least that's what I believe.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #58
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z should have never left the car!
his job is to observe only!

he is screwed, and probably deserves it.

i predict he will enjoy prison!


Despite what some 911 dispatcher recommends, it's not illegal to talk to someone on the street.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #59
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Despite what some 911 dispatcher recommends, it's not illegal to talk to someone on the street.
True. But it's not advised to confront a potential criminal. If Z thought this guy is really a thief, it would be logical that he was armed. What person in their right mind would approach a potential thief on a public street? IMO, only one who was looking for a fight.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #60
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So when I'm working and we have a potential thief walking around the store, I should just let him do what he's going to do? I've profiled potential thieves, and about 7 out of 9 times I've made aware to my co-workers that I think there is a shoplifter in my department, I was right. And no, only 4 were black, they just dressed the part. Shaggy clothes, a HOOD up pants hanging off their ass, crooked flat billed hats, neck tattoo's and gold teeth. Not to mention, make the whole section smell like pot. I'd say Zimmerman had every right to be suspicious.

This kid had no reason to start a fight because a neighborhood watchman was following him. If he wasn't a piece of trash, he would have just asked him to quit following him, "I'm just visiting my family down the road." Might have settled some nerves. Not punch him, knock him to the ground and bang his head on the cement or whatever happened.

All I have to say, I feel sorry for Zimmerman. He'll be made into a martyr for racism and he's not even white.
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