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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:30 AM   #61
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I understand everyone's arguments. I just have 3 questions:

1. How much suffering are you willing to ignore? Are you OK with driving past shanty towns on your way to work? Are you OK with having to step over starving children on your way into a restaurant? While in the long run, (meaning many decades or centuries), maybe we'd be better off by letting the weak die off, are you ready for seeing a short term, (meaning a few decades) of terrible suffering?

2. How much of a gap between the wealthy and the poor can this country handle? Most "first world" nations, like the USA and much of Europe, have a strong middle class and lower gap between the average worker and the wealthy. Most "third world" have a huge gap between the average worker and the wealthy. How long before this country slides down to third world status?

3. If low taxes on the wealthy brings prosperity for all, why isn't our economy going gangbusters right now? Taxes, especially on the wealthy, are near historic lows right now. Where is the prosperity? If high taxes in the wealthy is a "job killer" why is it that some of the most prosperous times in this country (1950's) also saw some of the highest tax rates?
1. Plenty, I'm not all that compassionate.
2. Good point, we need to put a handle on it.
3. I don't know enough about our current tax system. I will say this, our government does a good job in taxing businesses, requiring certain manufacturing standards that other countries dont, making it difficult to understand all the laws that pertain to your business, and down right making it difficult to legally and effectively run a small business....consider that a non income tax, tax, that some people have to endure to make "wealthy" status and create jobs for others, so I don't know that "taxes" are truely at a historic low. Did we have the same standards for osha in the 50's? EPA? registration requirements for commercial vehicles? etc.

I use that example because my brother was just pulled over recently to have a DOT inspection on a plow truck, he was 100% within the law, but was pulled over for something that is NOT a law, and the officer, his superior and many others did not know this, it took him 2 days of phone calls to find someone who was able to provide documentation to him that he was within the law.....thats a hefty tax in my eyes.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:31 AM   #62
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I understand everyone's arguments. I just have 3 questions:

1. How much suffering are you willing to ignore? Are you OK with driving past shanty towns on your way to work? Are you OK with having to step over starving children on your way into a restaurant? While in the long run, (meaning many decades or centuries), maybe we'd be better off by letting the weak die off, are you ready for seeing a short term, (meaning a few decades) of terrible suffering?

In what way does the extremely inefficient forms of Government in this Country "alleviate suffering" ? Through the indignity of being on the public dole? By handing out free cheese? By having social workers invade your home and tell you what your kids can and can not eat? By leaving the borders open? By killing 50 million pre-born babies since 1970ish, yet keeping convicted murders alive for decades because the death penalty is cruel? by forcing everyone into yet another socialized utopian view of healthcare? do you really want to wait for treatments you can afford, or worse have the Government tell you what you can eat, what you can't, and what BMI you should be at?

2. How much of a gap between the wealthy and the poor can this country handle? Most "first world" nations, like the USA and much of Europe, have a strong middle class and lower gap between the average worker and the wealthy. Most "third world" have a huge gap between the average worker and the wealthy. How long before this country slides down to third world status?

Europe's middle class has been under siege, and shrinking since 2000. Germany, arguably one of the strongest economies in Europe has seen a tic reduction in middle class demographics, and a surge in numbers below 70% of the median income every year since 2000 (according to the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW))


3. If low taxes on the wealthy brings prosperity for all, why isn't our economy going gangbusters right now? Taxes, especially on the wealthy, are near historic lows right now. Where is the prosperity? If high taxes in the wealthy is a "job killer" why is it that some of the most prosperous times in this country (1950's) also saw some of the highest tax rates?
Fiscal Conservative does not have to imply that taxes should be lower than they currently are, or held at historical lows - spending your great grandparent's futures has got to stop, regardless of your political party, or ideology.

And of course, my statements above are intended to be somewhat lopsided - to counter your one-sided, singular issue presentation of the issues.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:34 AM   #63
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I use that example because my brother was just pulled over recently to have a DOT inspection on a plow truck, he was 100% within the law, but was pulled over for something that is NOT a law, and the officer, his superior and many others did not know this, it took him 2 days of phone calls to find someone who was able to provide documentation to him that he was within the law.....thats a hefty tax in my eyes.
Amen. We are so absurdly over-regulated in every aspect of our lives that we all have huge carrying costs that impact everything we buy, sell, trade, or use.

Is regulation necessary, of course, but we are well past the point of reason/sanity. And these regulations (including obamacare) and the fear of the unknown are one reason why people with capital aren't making investments to create jobs.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:34 AM   #64
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[futures has got to stop, regardless of your political party, or ideology.[/COLOR]

And of course, my statements above are intended to be somewhat lopsided - to counter your one-sided, singular issue presentation of the issues.
One thing I have learned is that bruce will take the far end of an argument, regardless of his actual feelings just for the sake of arguing, which means you have to counter with a more extreme view of your own to meet at the middle ground....oh, sorta like the dems and reps in our own governemnt....weird....now I wonder what kind of people are really the problem?
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:47 AM   #65
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One thing I have learned is that bruce will take the far end of an argument, regardless of his actual feelings just for the sake of arguing, which means you have to counter with a more extreme view of your own to meet at the middle ground....oh, sorta like the dems and reps in our own governemnt....weird....now I wonder what kind of people are really the problem?


I do too. Damn. Got me wondering too now


I personally have a good family friend that sold his business, kept his name, and his son's name as account managers with the new firm, in part because of State and Federal regulation. Don only kept his name involved to keep his son employed. Don is very well off, with a 3,000 sq ft home in Canadian Lakes, some 80 acres of hunting property in Mecosta County, a 5,000 sq ft house in Venice Florida, a couple of office buildings fully leased in Brighton and a place in Aspen.

He was in business for some 30 years, and could have maintained/grown it. The risk vs. reward simply is not there, regardless of how low taxes are, or how good incentives are.

He has his office buildings still, and if the Fed ever reaches sanity and stability I could see him restarting a business and employing people again. In the mean time, in his late 50s it's a lot less stressful to golf his brains out, and keep the lawn service folks, and valet's employed.

Atlas shrugged indeed.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:55 AM   #66
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I understand everyone's arguments. I just have 3 questions:

1. How much suffering are you willing to ignore? Are you OK with driving past shanty towns on your way to work? Are you OK with having to step over starving children on your way into a restaurant? While in the long run, (meaning many decades or centuries), maybe we'd be better off by letting the weak die off, are you ready for seeing a short term, (meaning a few decades) of terrible suffering?

2. How much of a gap between the wealthy and the poor can this country handle? Most "first world" nations, like the USA and much of Europe, have a strong middle class and lower gap between the average worker and the wealthy. Most "third world" have a huge gap between the average worker and the wealthy. How long before this country slides down to third world status?

3. If low taxes on the wealthy brings prosperity for all, why isn't our economy going gangbusters right now? Taxes, especially on the wealthy, are near historic lows right now. Where is the prosperity? If high taxes in the wealthy is a "job killer" why is it that some of the most prosperous times in this country (1950's) also saw some of the highest tax rates?
1. That's exactly what private charities are for. Gleaner's, Salvation Army, soup kitchens, etc. I'm all for charity, just not in the form of being channeled through the government.

2. Once people are forced to actually provide for themselves, I truly believe the gap would shorten.

3. I don't think there is any type of direct ratio for % taxes vs. economic prosperity. The issue has a much larger equation and way too many variables to gain a picture perfect understanding of it.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:57 AM   #67
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3. If low taxes on the wealthy brings prosperity for all, why isn't our economy going gangbusters right now? Taxes, especially on the wealthy, are near historic lows right now. Where is the prosperity? If high taxes in the wealthy is a "job killer" why is it that some of the most prosperous times in this country (1950's) also saw some of the highest tax rates?
IMHO, a successful flat tax wouldn't be flat at all:
1) define a poverty line and exempt those below it;
2) define a graduated tax rate between a income band above poverty and below $nn,nnn earnings;
3) flat tax rate on everyone above that "magic $nn,nnn number";
4) eliminate ALL tax breaks and loopholes for *EVERYBODY* above poverty level.

I think this would provide a significant increase in tax revenue for several reasons:
1) The IRS could be greatly reduced in size if there were *NOTHING* to audit;
2) Removal of loopholes to keep wealthy folks that can afford the best accountants from cheating the system.

I think that's why the graduated tax laws are currently not working - poorer folks can't afford to take advantage of some of the tax breaks (i.e. mortgage interest, property taxes, deferred 401K savings) and pay a dis-proportionally large amount of earnings as taxation.

Everybody to file a 1040EZ and couches of the rich be fcuked.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 11:59 AM   #68
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I understand everyone's arguments. I just have 3 questions:

1. How much suffering are you willing to ignore? Are you OK with driving past shanty towns on your way to work? Are you OK with having to step over starving children on your way into a restaurant? While in the long run, (meaning many decades or centuries), maybe we'd be better off by letting the weak die off, are you ready for seeing a short term, (meaning a few decades) of terrible suffering?
I have zero problem with it. I kinda hope though that the restaurant would have some sort of service to remove their little carcasses from my path, but meh, I guess I could be inconvenienced by stepping over them.

That's a bit harsh, but my far to the other side comment is equally fitting for what you say.

The thing is these people that leech off the system are a cancer that is killing us all slowly, but surely. I compare them to the asian carp in the Mississippi, the feral pigs, or any of those invasive species. While I hate to see any animal die, things that don't belong, don't contribute, and generally wreck the entire system for everything else need to be removed for the greater good.

*patiently waiting for the ,"Isn't that what Hitler tried to do", comment*

At some point we need to cut off the feedbag and let them sink or swim otherwise we are all going to be poor as fukc living in the street. The US will end up looking like a Sally Struthers feed the kids in Africa commercial. Then who is going to take care of us, the nation that is hated by half of the world and takes care of the other half?

We b fuked yo
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:06 PM   #69
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Another iron for the fire...

How much is enough? How much is too much? How little is poor?

I'm not talking about national averages, or what our flavor of the month government declares as "poverty" and "wealthy".

To me those are questions that really have no answer besides opinions. Just like: What is beautiful? What is ugly?

Everyone has varying degrees of what we think poor and wealthy are so I don't see how anyone can decide as a standard what the dollar amount is assigned to each one.

When I was a high school kid I would have looked at someone like myself and Kerry and thought we were rich because we could buy whatever CD we want whenever we want. Now I look at people myself as being comfortable and people that live on the lake and driving Ferarri's as being well off.

Once again I suppose its all about perspective. And it seems like the have-nots bitch the loudest.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:14 PM   #70
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Poor in this country comes across to me as those who don't have a new TV, newest smartphone, don't have a car, etc. I know that isn't necessarily the case but I hear people bitching that live paycheck to paycheck about how poor they are with an iPhone, car, computer, etc.

You want to see poor? Go to fucking Africa.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:20 PM   #71
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When rich people/buisness owners have $$$ to hire its a good thing...can't be anyworse than what we have
That is the biggest bullshit lie that republican politicians have been telling us, for decades now.


It has NEVER worked, and NEVER will.




Rich people or business do not just create jobs out of thin air because they have more money. Jobs can only be added if their is a demand for their goods/services.

The middle class has to be buying goods/services otherwise there is no demand for them. So there is no gain in jobs.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:28 PM   #72
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Can anyone honestly say they know what either party stands for anymore?


Unfortunately absolutely.

Democrats-Actually care about the common people. HOWEVER that care gets to include dirt bags who choose state assistance as lifelong carreer path.

Despite a LACK OF ACTION they want to take away your guns. Again this hasn't happened but it seems like they are always preaching it.

ALL Mexicans are A-OK.

Gays are super-which is sort of dumb.

Republicans-Only care about the rich, and will stuff it in your ass sideways if it helps the rich.

Kill all mexicans

You should be able to own tanks, and rocket launchers

Kill all gays




Something like that.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:35 PM   #73
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What I can't figure out, is where has the middle gone??


I think the rich should AT LEAST pay their share, by paying AT LEAST the same percentage as those making much less.

I think that you should not have your guns taken, UNLESS you are mentally ill, and I don't see the need for high capacity compact automatic weapons.

I don't approve of homosexuality, or gay marriage, but I don't think the gov't should not allow it, based on moral grounds.

Mexicans have helped to fukc things up. That is just a fact. Anyone without kids, leaves TODAY. Anyone with kids is given two years to get legal or LEAVE.
Any business hiring illegals, even if the paperwork is technically legal gets fined out of business after two offenses.

Abortion. Allow it. Especially in cases of rape/insest. Let the person getting an abortion make that decision and deal with it. It's between them and god, or them and their conscience.

Last edited by 95Bronco; February 1st, 2012 at 01:02 PM.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:38 PM   #74
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Unfortunately absolutely.

Democrats-Actually care about the common people. HOWEVER that care gets to include dirt bags who choose state assistance as lifelong carreer path.

Despite a LACK OF ACTION they want to take away your guns. Again this hasn't happened but it seems like they are always preaching it.

ALL Mexicans are A-OK.

Gays are super-which is sort of dumb.

Republicans-Only care about the rich, and will stuff it in your ass sideways if it helps the rich.

Kill all mexicans

You should be able to own tanks, and rocket launchers

Kill all gays




Something like that.
You should try to keep your post count under 850
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:42 PM   #75
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You should try to keep your post count under 850
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:51 PM   #76
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Republicans-Only care about the rich, and will stuff it in your ass sideways if it helps the rich.

Kill all mexicans

You should be able to own tanks, and rocket launchers

Kill all gays
3 out of 4 isn't bad.

Seriously though I'm not really sure which side you are supporting. At first I was like, "Oh this guy is a Libtard". Then you mention that the Republicans think its ok for you to own tanks and rocket launchers and I was like, "Ahh this guy is a Republican because there is no way he could think owning tanks is a bad thing."

Then I realized I really didn't care.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 01:09 PM   #77
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My question is: What has the Political "Parties" concept done for you?

Other then push a bigger wedge between Americans.

I decided a while back, to go by the code of "God, Family, Country". If you as my neighbor leave the first two alone, so I can live it, I will have your back for the third.

Its a pretty simple concept really.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 01:36 PM   #78
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With Obama you get taxes, which just feed the politicians. I learned a lesson long ago from Disney's animated Robin Hood that taxes promise to help the meek, but only harm the payers. Who was the hero in Robin hood again, the Politician who harvested taxes (Sheriff Nottingham) or Robin hood who took the money back from the government and put it in the hands of the people?

Alan-a-Dale:
Well, even though Prince John offered a huge reward for the capture
of Robin Hood, that elusive rogue kept right on robbin' the rich to feed
the poor. And believe me, it's a good thing he did, 'cause what with taxes and
all, the poor folks of Nottingham were starvin' to death.
Uh-oh. Here comes old bad news himself, the Honorable Sheriff of Nottingham.

Sheriff, a wolf: [ Singing ]
Every town has its taxes too
And the taxes is due
Do do-do do do

Friar Tuck: [ Chuckles ]
Well, lookie there. The old do-gooder.
He's out doin' good again.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 01:36 PM   #79
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Ford Flareside, I like that concept.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 01:43 PM   #80
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Ford Flareside, I like that concept.
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