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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:39 PM   #41
Renegade II
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Originally Posted by Wramblerguy View Post
they came as 5 and 6 bolt hubs 6 bolt hubs are better and you have warn lock outs so thats good too
Yes the 6 bolts hubs provide stronger lockout options, but that's about it. Bearing and spindle wise they are no stronger and in the disc brake era use the same internals.

This would be great if these had a rotor behind them instead of a drum. Manual, four wheel drums on a Jeep with 35's don't stop it much quicker than a freight train.

The Lock-O-Matic hubs are junk, Warn quit making them over 30 years ago for a reason. They regularly do one of four things, no one more than another;
  • Engage
  • don't engage
  • Blow apart
  • snap the stub shaft

And they tend not to work at all in sub freezing temps.

Last edited by Renegade II; October 3rd, 2011 at 06:54 PM.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 10:20 PM   #42
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i'll take the picture tomorrow of the day after and post it up. busy with work and school. but thanks for the info guys
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 10:22 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
Yes the 6 bolts hubs provide stronger lockout options, but that's about it. Bearing and spindle wise they are no stronger and in the disc brake era use the same internals.

This would be great if these had a rotor behind them instead of a drum. Manual, four wheel drums on a Jeep with 35's don't stop it much quicker than a freight train.

The Lock-O-Matic hubs are junk, Warn quit making them over 30 years ago for a reason. They regularly do one of four things, no one more than another;
  • Engage
  • don't engage
  • Blow apart
  • snap the stub shaft

And they tend not to work at all in sub freezing temps.
it will hopefully have 4 wheel disc brakes before the 35's get installed. 33's on it currently are you saying that these hubs are no good? should i replace this axle as a whole or just convert it to discs ya think?
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Old October 4th, 2011, 10:48 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by reptile610 View Post
it will hopefully have 4 wheel disc brakes before the 35's get installed. 33's on it currently are you saying that these hubs are no good? should i replace this axle as a whole or just convert it to discs ya think?
If the donor has good ball joints, swapping the outers to later model disc would be the easiest way to get it going quick. If the donor axle has regular lock outs get those and dump the crap-o-matics off to a collector. Be careful with this though as earlier drum brakes have an ever so slightly different stub shaft than the post Bendix discs. If you're just swapping outers I'd use the donors stubs just to be sure. jeepjk4dr just took a pile of my old 30 shit to the scrapper or I'd show ya pics of the difference.

My .02¢ on stock Jeep CJ axles. They are the worst part of the vehicle once you get serious about low gearing and wheeling with aggressive rubber. Spending money twice is the biggest problem/mistake when trying to make stock CJ axles live longer. 'Get by' with cheap used part gear or locker upgrades and invest the bigger money into axles that will survive spirited use.

Personally I wouldn't stick a ton of $$ into a model 30 that would even occasionally be run hard with 35's & 4:88's. That's lots of fragile little teeth in an itty bitty diff. With a 6 I broke enough 30 axles and ring gears running 35's that I could have paid for a narrowed Scout 44. Maybe lunch box locker it, match the rear gear and call it good. Then start saving for an upgrade. Until then respect the 30's limitations & know when to pull cable.

That's brings us to the rear model AMC 20. It has a nice sized ring & pinion, that's about it. I'm not a fan of it's crush sleeve pre-load, but that's a personal preference.
  • The axle tubes are weak and bend easy.
  • The axle tubes like to spin in the housing or in the visa-versa depending on how you look at it.
  • The 2 piece axles suck and will break keyways.

Sure you can buy a truss. Sure you can buy one piece axles. Sure you can weld the tubes to the center. But why waste all that time and $$ putting lipstick on a pig when you can get a low geared 60 or 14 bolt narrowed for about the same investment and never worry about it again? Even the smaller ring geared Dana 44 has a better history of survivnig as a rear diff than the AMC 20.

My suggestion to get going cheap and save $ for later improvements based on staying with the 4cyl for now;
  • Getting discs on the front will be good enough to stop the 35's, but I'd find a used CJ power brake setup to help.
  • Don't waste time and $$ putting rear disc on an AMC 20, save the cash and get rid of the 20 all together at a later date.
  • Find some used 4:10 / 4:56 gears and carriers.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.





Last edited by Renegade II; October 4th, 2011 at 11:29 AM.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 11:00 AM   #45
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The donor a le I have is no good all the gears and internals r shot u can move the ring gear up and down about an inch so u would have to do the knuckle swap and the axles should still be good on it as well
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Old October 4th, 2011, 11:12 AM   #46
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Ok you are running a 4 cylinder so I wouldn't worry about breaking anything I run a 95 mpi 4 cylinder that has more power then yours with the stock 30/35 wrangler axles and I wheel the shit out of it I beat it to death and I haven't broken a thing
And u want to go to 35s that is gonna kill your motor the 33s r really to big for the gears you most likely have and yes the 20 has weak axle tubes weld then and don't beat on it too bad and u won't bend it a set of one piece axles for 200 bucks is a deal throw those in and call it good do the knuckle swap inthe front for disc brakes and run the 33s
I would do that until you decide to upgrade your motor
And even then the d30 can hold upto alot of abuse my dad ran a 30 up front with a lunchbox locker for probably 10 years with a 360 for a motor on a 5000 pound jeep and didn't break it till he had It standing on one wheel and even then he broke the carrier
So basically don't be afraid of the stock axles
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Old October 4th, 2011, 11:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wramblerguy View Post
And even then the d30 can hold upto alot of abuse my dad ran a 30 up front with a lunchbox locker for probably 10 years with a 360 for a motor on a 5000 pound jeep and didn't break it till he had It standing on one wheel and even then he broke the carrier
So basically don't be afraid of the stock axles
ummm, no
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Old October 4th, 2011, 12:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Wramblerguy View Post
Ok, you are running a 4 cylinder so I wouldn't worry about breaking anything. I run a 95 mpi 4 cylinder that has more power than yours with the stock 30/35 wrangler axles and I wheel the shit out of it. I beat it to death and I haven't broken a thing.
And you want to go to 35s? That is going to kill your motor. The 33s are really too big for the gears you most likely have and yes, the 20 has weak axle tubes. Weld them and don't beat on it too bad, and you won't bend it. A set of one piece axles for 200 bucks is a deal. Throw those in and call it good. Do the knuckle swap in the front for disc brakes and run the 33s.
I would do that until you decide to upgrade your motor.
Even then, the d30 can hold up to a lot of abuse. My dad ran a 30 up front with a lunchbox locker for probably 10 years. He had a 360 for a motor on a 5000 pound jeep and didn't break it until he had It standing on one wheel. Even then he broke the carrier.
So basically, don't be afraid of the stock axles.
Edited for clarity, even though your info is still mostly wrong or misleading.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
If the donor has good ball joints, swapping the outers to later model disc would be the easiest way to get it going quick. If the donor axle has regular lock outs get those and dump the crap-o-matics off to a collector. Be careful with this though as earlier drum brakes have an ever so slightly different stub shaft than the post Bendix discs. If you're just swapping outers I'd use the donors stubs just to be sure. jeepjk4dr just took a pile of my old 30 shit to the scrapper or I'd show ya pics of the difference.

My .02 on stock Jeep CJ axles. They are the worst part of the vehicle once you get serious about low gearing and wheeling with aggressive rubber. Spending money twice is the biggest problem/mistake when trying to make stock CJ axles live longer. 'Get by' with cheap used part gear or locker upgrades and invest the bigger money into axles that will survive spirited use.

Personally I wouldn't stick a ton of $$ into a model 30 that would even occasionally be run hard with 35's & 4:88's. That's lots of fragile little teeth in an itty bitty diff. With a 6 I broke enough 30 axles and ring gears running 35's that I could have paid for a narrowed Scout 44. Maybe lunch box locker it, match the rear gear and call it good. Then start saving for an upgrade. Until then respect the 30's limitations & know when to pull cable.

That's brings us to the rear model AMC 20. It has a nice sized ring & pinion, that's about it. I'm not a fan of it's crush sleeve pre-load, but that's a personal preference.
  • The axle tubes are weak and bend easy.
  • The axle tubes like to spin in the housing or in the visa-versa depending on how you look at it.
  • The 2 piece axles suck and will break keyways.

Sure you can buy a truss. Sure you can buy one piece axles. Sure you can weld the tubes to the center. But why waste all that time and $$ putting lipstick on a pig when you can get a low geared 60 or 14 bolt narrowed for about the same investment and never worry about it again? Even the smaller ring geared Dana 44 has a better history of survivnig as a rear diff than the AMC 20.

My suggestion to get going cheap and save $ for later improvements based on staying with the 4cyl for now;
  • Getting discs on the front will be good enough to stop the 35's, but I'd find a used CJ power brake setup to help.
  • Don't waste time and $$ putting rear disc on an AMC 20, save the cash and get rid of the 20 all together at a later date.
  • Find some used 4:10 / 4:56 gears and carriers.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.




This times eleventy bazillion.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
Edited for clarity, even though your info is still mostly wrong or misleading.
OK, you did a decent job of editing that post. Now try the one below. I tried by my head hurts too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wramblerguy View Post
The donor a le I have is no good all the gears and internals r shot u can move the ring gear up and down about an inch so u would have to do the knuckle swap and the axles should still be good on it as well
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Old October 4th, 2011, 01:47 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
If the donor has good ball joints, swapping the outers to later model disc would be the easiest way to get it going quick. If the donor axle has regular lock outs get those and dump the crap-o-matics off to a collector. Be careful with this though as earlier drum brakes have an ever so slightly different stub shaft than the post Bendix discs. If you're just swapping outers I'd use the donors stubs just to be sure. jeepjk4dr just took a pile of my old 30 shit to the scrapper or I'd show ya pics of the difference.

My .02 on stock Jeep CJ axles. They are the worst part of the vehicle once you get serious about low gearing and wheeling with aggressive rubber. Spending money twice is the biggest problem/mistake when trying to make stock CJ axles live longer. 'Get by' with cheap used part gear or locker upgrades and invest the bigger money into axles that will survive spirited use.

Personally I wouldn't stick a ton of $$ into a model 30 that would even occasionally be run hard with 35's & 4:88's. That's lots of fragile little teeth in an itty bitty diff. With a 6 I broke enough 30 axles and ring gears running 35's that I could have paid for a narrowed Scout 44. Maybe lunch box locker it, match the rear gear and call it good. Then start saving for an upgrade. Until then respect the 30's limitations & know when to pull cable.

That's brings us to the rear model AMC 20. It has a nice sized ring & pinion, that's about it. I'm not a fan of it's crush sleeve pre-load, but that's a personal preference.
  • The axle tubes are weak and bend easy.
  • The axle tubes like to spin in the housing or in the visa-versa depending on how you look at it.
  • The 2 piece axles suck and will break keyways.

Sure you can buy a truss. Sure you can buy one piece axles. Sure you can weld the tubes to the center. But why waste all that time and $$ putting lipstick on a pig when you can get a low geared 60 or 14 bolt narrowed for about the same investment and never worry about it again? Even the smaller ring geared Dana 44 has a better history of survivnig as a rear diff than the AMC 20.

My suggestion to get going cheap and save $ for later improvements based on staying with the 4cyl for now;
  • Getting discs on the front will be good enough to stop the 35's, but I'd find a used CJ power brake setup to help.
  • Don't waste time and $$ putting rear disc on an AMC 20, save the cash and get rid of the 20 all together at a later date.
  • Find some used 4:10 / 4:56 gears and carriers.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.
  • Keep the two piece axle nuts tight.




^ this guy is right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wramblerguy View Post
The donor a le I have is no good all the gears and internals r shot u can move the ring gear up and down about an inch so u would have to do the knuckle swap and the axles should still be good on it as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wramblerguy View Post
Ok you are running a 4 cylinder so I wouldn't worry about breaking anything I run a 95 mpi 4 cylinder that has more power then yours with the stock 30/35 wrangler axles and I wheel the shit out of it I beat it to death and I haven't broken a thing
And u want to go to 35s that is gonna kill your motor the 33s r really to big for the gears you most likely have and yes the 20 has weak axle tubes weld then and don't beat on it too bad and u won't bend it a set of one piece axles for 200 bucks is a deal throw those in and call it good do the knuckle swap inthe front for disc brakes and run the 33s
I would do that until you decide to upgrade your motor
And even then the d30 can hold upto alot of abuse my dad ran a 30 up front with a lunchbox locker for probably 10 years with a 360 for a motor on a 5000 pound jeep and didn't break it till he had It standing on one wheel and even then he broke the carrier
So basically don't be afraid of the stock axles
^ this guy sleeps with his sister.


See what we are getting at.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 06:19 PM   #52
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didn't know what you wanted by a good pic so i took a few =]

drivers side:



passenger side:



also i took a picture of the underbody of mine. should i wire brush it abit and then undercoat it(planned on using the new duplicolor bedliner) or should i sand it all down and do it?
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Old October 4th, 2011, 07:28 PM   #53
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ok so i figure i owe everyone my game plan. this winter is to get the jeep driving down the road in one piece, completely legal. i replaced a belt and vacuum lines. replacing a clutch and u joints, fluids, and tune up. re wiring stuff to get it actually working, redo the brakes and a 50mph paint job =].then this summer im going to just drive it. get used to how it handles, get used to the clutch, and figure out what needs to actually get fixed since it hasn't been driven in awhile. then next last fall it's going into the garage again with all the money i hopefully saved up over the summer for upgrades. armor, the amc v8 that came out of these and a trans that will handle that and will mount up to my dana 300. would like beefier axles, and im not sure on the lift, i wanted to run YJ springs because i hear they're alot better ride and flex but im not sure if i wanna run SOA or just lifted springs. also going to upgrade the steering and get a steering box brace. and possibly start on doing the interior.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 08:33 PM   #54
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That looks like an early style spring mount (arrow) like what were used on the narrow (pre 76) 1.75" wide springs. Not really a big deal if you're swapping out the outers and just using it to get by. Looks like someone had a ball putting that CJ puzzle together.

And no I'm not buying a CAD program to make a demo diagram here, live with my crappy 'paint' job

The body underside looks good, get at the bad spots, rhino line it and that tub will last you many years yet. Or if you ask jeepjk4dr he'd say it's got 30 years left on it the way it is I still have some Bendix disc stuff and other intermediate year hubs, axle shafts, crap that hasn't been scrapped out yet. Lemme know if you need any parts during the swap. I may have them and I definitely want to get rid of all of them from the barn.

.....that reminds me, jeepfreak81 owes me his first born for a 10 spline bull gear that came out of the hay mow

Last edited by Renegade II; March 1st, 2013 at 07:58 PM.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 08:45 PM   #55
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im not really sure what i wanna do. couldn't i just put new shoes on it, get a YJ brake booster/ master cylinder and call it a day for street/ dirt road driving?
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Old October 4th, 2011, 09:29 PM   #56
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im not really sure what i wanna do. couldn't i just put new shoes on it, get a YJ brake booster/ master cylinder and call it a day for street/ dirt road driving?

No offense to anyone, but most YJ's on here and other 4x4 sites are YJ skeletons with GM parts in them for a reason Make it easy on yourself, find CJ parts (booster, etc) and it'll all be direct bolt in.

Just some things to consider about drum brakes. I'd be willing to bet you'll be blowing out those old wheel cylinders the first time you push on the pedal with the new power assist brakes. Additionally, you can't "shoe slap" drums without having them turned and I'm betting those old drums are beyond spec. You can get them measured to see for sure. Start adding up the cost of front wheel cyls, shoes, drums, spring combi kits and it may well exceede the time & money you're looking at for an outer / disc swap.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
No offense to anyone, but most YJ's on here and other 4x4 sites are YJ skeletons with GM parts in them for a reason Make it easy on yourself, find CJ parts (booster, etc) and it'll all be direct bolt in.

Just some things to consider about drum brakes. I'd be willing to bet you'll be blowing out those old wheel cylinders the first time you push on the pedal with the new power assist brakes. Additionally, you can't "shoe slap" drums without having them turned and I'm betting those old drums are beyond spec. You can get them measured to see for sure. Start adding up the cost of front wheel cyls, shoes, drums, spring combi kits and it may well exceede the time & money you're looking at for an outer / disc swap.
*sigh* good point. gonna be alot harder to find a CJ i figure at a junk yard though.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 06:13 PM   #58
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*sigh* good point. gonna be alot harder to find a CJ i figure at a junk yard though.
Keep an eye open here and do searches in the classifieds, the stuff will pop up
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Old October 5th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #59
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gives me time to save up money i guess. still planning on atleast replacing this clutch because i want it road worthy this spring.
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Old October 6th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #60
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If you need CJ parts, you really can do yourself a favor and get ahold of DMCJeep on this site. Denny has every single part you'll ever need. He isn't dirt cheap to deal with, but he's on the low side of average as far as his pricing. If nothing else, send him a list of what you need and if he doesn't have it, he might be able to help you find it.

Enough of the shameless plug... just start doing what Renegade is saying. Look here, and on any of the other jeep sites, and on craigslist (get craigslisthelper for your phone if you have an Android/ iphone) for parts. Build a stockpile. Use what you need, sell the rest. Even if you buy an entire D30 for the disc swap, you can still sell the housing for $20. When I did my CJ, I went out to Lansing to pickup a free D44 rear housing and ended up buying a D30 front with disc brakes, a brake booster, master cylinder, and a spare set of cro-mo axle shafts for $150. Most people on this site aren't JUST selling one piece of a Jeep, and all it takes is flashing a bit of money to get most of us from "thinking of selling" to "sold".

Good luck with your build either way!
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