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Old September 30th, 2011, 09:51 AM   #61
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The elites of our nation are using the legal system, the laws they pay lobbyist's to promote, and our free trade agreements to increase their own wealth. In doing so they are removing jobs from our market and increasingly globalizing the economy. This might be all fine and dandy for whoflungdung in China (or any other nation we have mobilized towards), but it comes down to hurt you and I.

The real conundrum here, is how do we promote national growth first, maintain job growth, place a handle on inflation and get our economy back on the fast track? Until this happens we will see more jobs lost and our dollars will continue to buy less and less - furthering the class divisions and creating domestic turmoil.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 10:02 AM   #62
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How would you like a 12% pay cut? Or even better, a 18% pay cut under the Cain "9-9-9" plan? What if you were barely getting by, and I don't mean KerryAnn's friend making 50K and thinking they are barely getting by, but one of the 15% or so who live in poverty, and had to give up another 12 to 18% or more? Do you think that will provide the impetus to better themselves and achieve a higher level of success? How many more will end up homeless? How many more will face hunger? How many more will turn to crime? Do you think this will make America a better place? Do you think this would increase or decrease the odds of America dissolving into class warfare? Do you think the resulting increase in the divergence in wealth and income will help or hinder the overall prosperity of this country?

Trust me I would love to pay less taxes. (Slippery slope coming)How about this, in rough numbers the federal government takes in about $1.8 trillion a year in income and payroll taxes. There are about 300 million people in the country. So that comes out to $6000 per person per year. So if we all benefit from government spending equally, I'll just pay my $6000 a year and be done with it. It'll suck for a family of 4 that has to pay $24000 but what do I care. Maybe it will provide the impetus for them to better themselves.

Cliff notes answer: because I don't think the alternative is whats best for the country.
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12% is about what a "flat tax" would need to be to collect the same in taxes as we do know.

Cain plan calls for a 9% flat income tax and a 9% sale tax equaling 18%.

These would be implemented equally across the board, so those who now pay near or less than zero tax would see that much reduction in spending power.

One thing you're forgetting is that a government that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul. If there were not clear lines defining a level of poverty beneath which the taxes were reduced or even eliminated - ANYBODY supporting that "plan" would not get into office.

Since the minority of voting America pays the majority of the taxes, there will never be enough votes to back such a measure.

It seems politicians have got every. single. one. of us snowed: We sit here arguing about which tax is fair and whom should see increases levied. While we battle out in this, as you call it "Class Warfare", our employees in D.C. are continuing to embezzle and waste our money. We talk about budget and spending - when we should look at cost-to-benefit ratio.

Has anybody ever done a study to see how many of our tax dollars it takes to provide $1 of aid to someone that needs it? I'm almost willing to bet that number hovers around $100.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 11:03 AM   #63
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Poor statement. For all you know his dad could have been in the military and KIA, or killed in a car accident, or killed at work. There's a lot of people who have been on hard times for a variety of reasons that never milked the system.
Yes, you may be right and if so I apologize.

But he does the same thing in his statement, assuming that every woman on welfare with a bunch of kids is in that predicament because she couldn't keep her legs closed.

I found that rather ironic.

Last edited by brewmenn; September 30th, 2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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Old September 30th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #64
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It's a Liberal fest in here.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 12:18 PM   #65
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It's a Liberal fest in here.
I see at best 2 that could be considered "liberal".

But I'm flattered that a few "liberals" going against several conservatives gets labeled a "liberal fest"
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Old September 30th, 2011, 12:59 PM   #66
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One thing you're forgetting is that a government that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul. If there were not clear lines defining a level of poverty beneath which the taxes were reduced or even eliminated - ANYBODY supporting that "plan" would not get into office.

Since the minority of voting America pays the majority of the taxes, there will never be enough votes to back such a measure.

It seems politicians have got every. single. one. of us snowed: We sit here arguing about which tax is fair and whom should see increases levied. While we battle out in this, as you call it "Class Warfare", our employees in D.C. are continuing to embezzle and waste our money. We talk about budget and spending - when we should look at cost-to-benefit ratio.

Has anybody ever done a study to see how many of our tax dollars it takes to provide $1 of aid to someone that needs it? I'm almost willing to bet that number hovers around $100.
Strawmen.

There is no debate that Government spends to much and is inefficient. But that's not the topic of this thread.
As I stated earlier, we could debate until the end of time about what taxes system would be fair. No tax. A set amount per sole. A flat tax. A 100% tax over a set amount. a 100% tax on all income with the government redistributing as it sees fit. You'll find someone out there that will support each of these as "fair". But again, it's not the topic of this thread.
Nor is this thread about welfare mom having to many babies, or who grew up poor, or any of the other strawmen built in this thread.
I find it ironic that some people think that high taxes on the rich will decrease their drive to succeed, but think high taxes on the poor will increase their drive to succeed. But that too is a strawman.

This thread is about the justification of those people protesting on Wall Street.

I'll re-post the article that Brods posted because it is exactly what I am talking about: http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html

And specifically this:

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Over the past 30 years most people have seen only modest salary increases: the average annual salary in America, expressed in 1998 dollars (that is, adjusted for inflation), rose from $32,522 in 1970 to $35,864 in 1999. That's about a 10 percent increase over 29 years -- progress, but not much. Over the same period, however, according to Fortune magazine, the average real annual compensation of the top 100 C.E.O.'s went from $1.3 million -- 39 times the pay of an average worker -- to $37.5 million, more than 1,000 times the pay of ordinary workers.
Of course executives who are running the company should make more than those just working there. Of course hard work should be rewarded. Of course those who strive to improve their skills and knowledge through hard work and education should be rewarded. None of this is in debate. The question is how much. If a CEO in 1970 was worth 39 times the average worker, why is that same CEO in 1999 1000 times the average worker? Will that same CEO be worth 25,000 times the average worker in 2028? Where will it end?

It's not about the government robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's about at what point does the wealth and income disparity between Peter and Paul become so large that Paul is essentially an indentured servant to Peter and he decides to do the robbing himself. Will the USA still be a great place to be then?
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Old September 30th, 2011, 01:34 PM   #67
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I imagine that people are looking at it in 2 different ways. For me, I am looking at private industry and I am sure some are seeing it from a publically traded industry. Either way, I see it basically the same, although I believe a private owner who created his company bottom to top should reap the rewards. To me, every portion of the equation is supply and demand. There are very few people out there who can run a compay well. There are tons of people out there that can push a broom. And for every task in between, there is a similar supply and demand. So, if there is a need for high quality people, the price per person goes up. As that skill set gets saturated, the price per person goes down. Why does a company choose to pay an executive a high rate? Because they feel they get a return for their money that offsets the salary. It happens at every level. The above quoted statement is only talking about the top 100 CEO's out of thousands of companies. So, why are we worrying about 100 people? If they have found the secret to making their companies one of the top 100 companies in the world, they are worth every penny they are getting.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 01:51 PM   #68
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I don't really care what a CEO makes, if the organization that he is running can support the salary he is demanding then I don't care.

If a CEO is bleeding a company dry and put's it out of business you have a problem.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #69
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Strawmen.

There is no debate that Government spends to much and is inefficient. But that's not the topic of this thread.
As I stated earlier, we could debate until the end of time about what taxes system would be fair. No tax. A set amount per sole. A flat tax. A 100% tax over a set amount. a 100% tax on all income with the government redistributing as it sees fit. You'll find someone out there that will support each of these as "fair". But again, it's not the topic of this thread.
Nor is this thread about welfare mom having to many babies, or who grew up poor, or any of the other strawmen built in this thread.
I find it ironic that some people think that high taxes on the rich will decrease their drive to succeed, but think high taxes on the poor will increase their drive to succeed. But that too is a strawman.

This thread is about the justification of those people protesting on Wall Street.

I'll re-post the article that Brods posted because it is exactly what I am talking about: http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html

And specifically this:



Of course executives who are running the company should make more than those just working there. Of course hard work should be rewarded. Of course those who strive to improve their skills and knowledge through hard work and education should be rewarded. None of this is in debate. The question is how much. If a CEO in 1970 was worth 39 times the average worker, why is that same CEO in 1999 1000 times the average worker? Will that same CEO be worth 25,000 times the average worker in 2028? Where will it end?

It's not about the government robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's about at what point does the wealth and income disparity between Peter and Paul become so large that Paul is essentially an indentured servant to Peter and he decides to do the robbing himself. Will the USA still be a great place to be then?
I was replying directly to a statement you posted - your opinion that it was okay to impose higher tax on people that make more money.

This is America - those idiots can march on wall street all they want. They should be given every opportunity to conduct a peaceful protest - if they aren't, Mr.Toes' channeled ghost tells me OBLAHBLAH will make everything all right.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 02:52 PM   #70
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I was replying directly to a statement you posted - your opinion that it was okay to impose higher tax on people that make more money.

This is America - those idiots can march on wall street all they want. They should be given every opportunity to conduct a peaceful protest - if they aren't, Mr.Toes' channeled ghost tells me OBLAHBLAH will make everything all right.
Yes and I apologize for allowing myself to be drawn off topic.
My answer to your question remains this:
Because I don't think the alternative is what's best for the country.
This will likely need to be the point where we agree to disagree.
Further discussion about taxes will need to be in a thread about taxes. Not here.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 03:28 PM   #71
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Yes, you may be right and if so I apologize.

But he does the same thing in his statement, assuming that every woman on welfare with a bunch of kids is in that predicament because she couldn't keep her legs closed.

I found that rather ironic.
First... I do think your comment was in poor taste, but I say that recognizing I was being a bit of a jerk to you. That being said...

I made no insinuation that every woman receiving aid is in their particular predicament because they couldnt keep their legs closed. You made that connection yourself. I was merely making a point that once people get on the aid programs, there is no deterrent to adding mouths to feed to the program. Exactly the same way we can not deny benefits based on drug testing, because there isnt any.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #72
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So now it is the government’s responsibility to teach basic morality to our children?
Absolutely not. There is nothing in what I typed that suggested anything of the sort. I am talking about History NOT being taught in the public schools. Actual American History. Not some watered down PC version of what some Harvard scholar thinks happened.

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What about parents’ responsibility to raise a decent, productive citizen?
I believe this is entirely the parents responsibility. We have a large number of parents failing to do their job.

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From the article referenced above: “Managerial self-dealing was a thing of the past…” Well its back with a vengeance! The moral “code” got kicked to the curb sometime in the 70s when the “greed is good” era started. Now it is all about what everyone can get for themselves without any concern whether it is good for the company, its employees or the nation as a whole. Seems people don’t even consider whether a choice is good for themselves in the long run, let alone give the slightest thought about how it affects others. That greed and selfishness is not limited to any one group, it is pervasive at all levels in American society. Please explain to me how that is all the government’s fault.
First, I agree with the article. We have become a very materialistic society.

Second, Government creates and fosters the environment where people should, dont, need to feel responsible for the decisions they make by promising to cure all their ills because of the big, bad, evil, white rich guy. The entire Mortgage deal is the best, most recent example I can put forth. In short, Government forced banks to write mortgages to low income folks under the threat of dropping their FDIC insurance and when they do that, and the borrowers start defaulting on their notes, the fed jumps back in and forces the banks to re-write the notes AND offers assistance to the folks that, had the public education system not failed them, been able to look at the terms and loan/value/income ratio and said we cant afford this.

If I lost my job right now, I could enjoy the same standard of living for 99 weeks off the backs of the taxpayers. My health and medication needs would be covered. Where is my motivation to work when the Government promises I wont need to cut back at all?

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The point being that business and government are run by people. It is individual people who make the decisions and it is each individual’s moral compass which guides their decision making. For some time now society’s moral compass has been set to greed and personal enrichment before all else. Imho that is the root cause of how we got where we are today and little will change until that basic underlying morality changes.
You will not get argument from me on this point. But again I refer you back to the education system. If kids were being taught how and why the US came about and the wars we have fought internally to get to where we are, I feel it would help. My wife and I continue our kids education at home with actual American history, not from public education text books.

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So you really believe the current situation is all because of welfare run amuck?
No, but I see you assumed I did and went ahead below...

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Ok, take the small town folks whose major manufacturing facility was shut down and sent to Brazil. Not long before the decision to shut it down the company expanded that small plant and invested probably half a mil in just filtration equipment alone (I did the startup). Good hard working people doing their jobs until some new female financial exec with all the great management ideas taught in the great schools made a decision based on profit. Lives changed forever, our country weakened that little bit more by the loss of yet more manufacturing jobs. I’m guessing the executives and BOD got a little richer when their stock options went up in value in the short term….but what is the long term cost? Repeat this story over and over and over again throughout our country. I have seen it time and time again in the round cutting tool industry. So now explain to those people who invested blood and sweat into their company only to have their jobs yanked out from under them, and worse yet, those jobs will never return so now their kids cannot have the opportunities they did, please explain how welfare took their jobs. My dad said business in this country really changed when the financial guys started running the show. He was an executive vice president at a large corporation and had a front row seat to the transformation. He retired in the mid 80’s, disgusted with how the company was being run.
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Should welfare be revamped, probably. Is it the root of our society's moral decay, doubtful. It is more likely the decay started at the top decades ago and has trickled down.
The decay, IMO started with T. Roosevelt.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 04:08 PM   #73
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First... I do think your comment was in poor taste, but I say that recognizing I was being a bit of a jerk to you. That being said...

I made no insinuation that every woman receiving aid is in their particular predicament because they couldnt keep their legs closed. You made that connection yourself. I was merely making a point that once people get on the aid programs, there is no deterrent to adding mouths to feed to the program. Exactly the same way we can not deny benefits based on drug testing, because there isnt any.
Yes, once again I apologize for that comment. And actually, I agree with you that anyone receiving public assistance should required to live up to certain standards geared towards improving their situation, or at least not making it worse.
But that too is not the topic of this thread so I will not discuss it further here.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 05:57 PM   #74
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One thing you're forgetting is that a government that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.
I just checked my mail box. I still have not received my check, either from the government or from Peter directly. Therefore my support is now in question......

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Old September 30th, 2011, 09:36 PM   #75
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It enslaves people at both ends. The tax payer is enslaved to pay the government and the recipient is enslaved by being dependent on the govenment for their sustiance. It causes resentment between the two parties and it is used by politicians to buy votes and garner power. It keeps us divided and fighting with each other instead of fighting together to restore our liberty from the tyranny of the government.
isn't this basically what we have now?

For the most part i agree with Brewmenn.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 11:28 AM   #76
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Getting back to the topic. Watched several interviews and video clips over the weekend of these protesters, not just Fox News interviews.

Again, these people have no fucking idea what they are protesting. Just happy that hollywood actors and rock bands might join them. That was good enough for them.

"Rich people need to pay their fair share"

And just how much is that? "Duh......." Blank stare.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 11:30 AM   #77
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trendy hipsters are useful sheeple to the 'bama crowd. jus' sayin.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 11:35 AM   #78
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trendy hipsters are useful sheeple to the 'bama crowd. jus' sayin.
Yup, useful idiots.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 10:28 AM   #79
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Old October 5th, 2011, 04:36 PM   #80
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The Occupy Wall Street protesters are nothing more than a bunch of unemployed freeloaders, who want laws in this country to be non existant, who want everything to be free for anyone who doesn't want to work, and want those of us who DO work to foot the bill for all of it.

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement!

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/propos...all-st-moveme/

Basically they don't want to pay any of their bills, they don't want to have to work anymore, and they want us to foot the bill for all the free stuff for everyone.
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