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Old September 29th, 2011, 02:01 PM   #41
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I know exactly what she makes, where she lives, how many kids she has, what she pays for her lease, and other various facts.
I also know that she was crying because she can't afford to make ends meet but doesnt understand how she can save any money when the items I listed are examples of "wants" and not "needs". When I start crying about how I can't put $500 bucks a month into savings (as recommended in our class) and have to put a percentage of my monthly costs on credit, then I would sell my F250 and drive a POS XJ like I did for the last four years.
I am a dink now but how many years did I live on one income? I bought my home on two incomes, dropped to only one income and still managed to squirrel money into savings monthly because I stopped leasing a new truck, stopped eating out, cut my landscaping service, cut my spending on clothes and services, and I tried to find areas where we could cut costs that were wants instead of needs.
I have put saving and cutting my spending into practice and guess what.. it works.
I'm not saying it doesn't work, but from what you posted the whole story couldn't be told.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #42
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I look through this thread and the people and their opinions and this is what I see.

Bruce cad designer, no real extended education(associates degree maybe? dunno), apparently poor in his mind and constantly getting fucked by "The Man", thinks the haves that worked hard to get their stuff should give it to the have nots because, "its the right thing to do"

Stan no extended education(that I know of), hard worker, does pretty well for himself, thinks you get what you work for.

Jim no extended education, smart guy, does quite well for himself, thinks you get what you work for.

Kerry came from a less than stellar situation, went to college, got a degree, got a shit job, worked hard, turned shit job into a very good job. Knows you get what you work for.

Chad college education, came on rough times, cut back, on the rebound, obviously going the right way because of his drive to do better for himself and his son.

Myself I came from a family where the combined income was less weekly than I make before lunch(no I don't make a ton, we were just that poor). I was told to work hard, go to school, get an education, and have what you want. I worked hard, went to school, got that education, got a good job. Didn't give up and only blame myself when things don't go my way.

I believe in this world you can still get ahead with hard work and dedication. The only thing holding people back is laziness and the assistance they already get for being mediocre at life.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 05:33 PM   #43
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so what you are saying is that most of us believe that you get what you work for...

I am also with whiterhino, flat tax acrossed the board.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 05:35 PM   #44
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I am a proponent of a flat tax.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 06:21 PM   #45
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Why?

Do people that are more successful use more governmental resources? That's rhetorical, you know, so don't answer. People that earn less use more of the government's resources.

So let me ask you this: as we continue to give those "less fortunate in the lottery of life" tax breaks and government aid, what impetus remains to drive people to better themselves and achieve a higher level of success?

In simple words, requiring people that earn more to pay more in tax is a penalty our government levies on success. Sure, people that make more certainly have more to give; why should the government elect itself to decide where my money goes (via higher tax rates)? Is the government so moral and just that it will direct more of my dollars to worthy organizations than my current charitable contributions?

I usually see your point clearly Bruce - but not here.
How would you like a 12% pay cut? Or even better, a 18% pay cut under the Cain "9-9-9" plan? What if you were barely getting by, and I don't mean KerryAnn's friend making 50K and thinking they are barely getting by, but one of the 15% or so who live in poverty, and had to give up another 12 to 18% or more? Do you think that will provide the impetus to better themselves and achieve a higher level of success? How many more will end up homeless? How many more will face hunger? How many more will turn to crime? Do you think this will make America a better place? Do you think this would increase or decrease the odds of America dissolving into class warfare? Do you think the resulting increase in the divergence in wealth and income will help or hinder the overall prosperity of this country?

Trust me I would love to pay less taxes. (Slippery slope coming)How about this, in rough numbers the federal government takes in about $1.8 trillion a year in income and payroll taxes. There are about 300 million people in the country. So that comes out to $6000 per person per year. So if we all benefit from government spending equally, I'll just pay my $6000 a year and be done with it. It'll suck for a family of 4 that has to pay $24000 but what do I care. Maybe it will provide the impetus for them to better themselves.

Cliff notes answer: because I don't think the alternative is whats best for the country.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 07:06 PM   #46
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How would you like a 12% pay cut? Or even better, a 18% pay cut under the Cain "9-9-9" plan? What if you were barely getting by, and I don't mean KerryAnn's friend making 50K and thinking they are barely getting by, but one of the 15% or so who live in poverty, and had to give up another 12 to 18% or more? Do you think that will provide the impetus to better themselves and achieve a higher level of success? How many more will end up homeless? How many more will face hunger? How many more will turn to crime? Do you think this will make America a better place? Do you think this would increase or decrease the odds of America dissolving into class warfare? Do you think the resulting increase in the divergence in wealth and income will help or hinder the overall prosperity of this country?

Trust me I would love to pay less taxes. (Slippery slope coming)How about this, in rough numbers the federal government takes in about $1.8 trillion a year in income and payroll taxes. There are about 300 million people in the country. So that comes out to $6000 per person per year. So if we all benefit from government spending equally, I'll just pay my $6000 a year and be done with it. It'll suck for a family of 4 that has to pay $24000 but what do I care. Maybe it will provide the impetus for them to better themselves.

Cliff notes answer: because I don't think the alternative is whats best for the country.
How do you equate getting a 12-18% pay reduction under the Cain plan? If you've spelled it out, sorry, I didn't read the whole thread...skimmed it though
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Old September 29th, 2011, 07:14 PM   #47
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How do you equate getting a 12-18% pay reduction under the Cain plan? If you've spelled it out, sorry, I didn't read the whole thread...skimmed it though
12% is about what a "flat tax" would need to be to collect the same in taxes as we do know.

Cain plan calls for a 9% flat income tax and a 9% sale tax equaling 18%.

These would be implemented equally across the board, so those who now pay near or less than zero tax would see that much reduction in spending power.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 07:19 PM   #48
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I look through this thread and the people and their opinions and this is what I see.

Bruce cad designer, no real extended education(associates degree maybe? dunno), apparently poor in his mind and constantly getting fucked by "The Man", thinks the haves that worked hard to get their stuff should give it to the have nots because, "its the right thing to do"

Stan no extended education(that I know of), hard worker, does pretty well for himself, thinks you get what you work for.

Jim no extended education, smart guy, does quite well for himself, thinks you get what you work for.

Kerry came from a less than stellar situation, went to college, got a degree, got a shit job, worked hard, turned shit job into a very good job. Knows you get what you work for.

Chad college education, came on rough times, cut back, on the rebound, obviously going the right way because of his drive to do better for himself and his son.

Myself I came from a family where the combined income was less weekly than I make before lunch(no I don't make a ton, we were just that poor). I was told to work hard, go to school, get an education, and have what you want. I worked hard, went to school, got that education, got a good job. Didn't give up and only blame myself when things don't go my way.

I believe in this world you can still get ahead with hard work and dedication. The only thing holding people back is laziness and the assistance they already get for being mediocre at life.
I have an associate degree. I certainly don't think I'm poor, I don't think I've been "fucked by the man". I just think that a large divergence in wealth and income is bad for the long term prognosis of this country.
What I see is a couple of people that while they were growing up poor were, whether they want to admit it or not, benefiting from a tax structure that was more progressive than it is now, but who now that they are in the upper percentages in income want everyone to pay the same. May Dad grew up very poor. The 10 people in his family lived in a tar paper shack smaller than some of our garages now. He put himself through college while working, had his share of "shit jobs", but worked hard and achieved a comfortable upper middle class life that I enjoyed while growing up. I know Kerry's story about why her Mom was poor but I don't know your parents excuse. So while you guys were growing up poor, my Dad was paying his hard earned income into a progressive tax system that you benefited from.... You're welcome.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #49
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12% is about what a "flat tax" would need to be to collect the same in taxes as we do know.

Cain plan calls for a 9% flat income tax and a 9% sale tax equaling 18%.

These would be implemented equally across the board, so those who now pay near or less than zero tax would see that much reduction in spending power.
Math.

My average effective tax rate is 11%. Right now we pay a 6% sales tax. SO essentially someone in my position would pay an additional 1% in tax. I think we could swing that. National sales tax, flat tax.. Personally I think its a great idea. Eliminate the need for the IRS and filing all together.

Now, certainly for the folks that have a 0 or net negative tax liability, any type of flat tax is going to hurt them. The entire situation is a catch 22, someone is going to get screwed. I personally believe everyone should be paying some amount of income tax. Regardless of level of income. I dont care if its just $1. Either that or the level of services provided by the Government via the taxpayers needs to shrink. It doesnt work and the proof is right in front of everyone.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #50
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What I see is a couple of people that while they were growing up poor were, whether they want to admit it or not, benefiting from a tax structure that was more progressive than it is now, but who now that they are in the upper percentages in income want everyone to pay the same. May Dad grew up very poor. The 10 people in his family lived in a tar paper shack smaller than some of our garages now. He put himself through college while working, had his share of "shit jobs", but worked hard and achieved a comfortable upper middle class life that I enjoyed while growing up. I know Kerry's story about why her Mom was poor but I don't know your parents excuse. So while you guys were growing up poor, my Dad was paying his hard earned income into a progressive tax system that you benefited from....
It is a different time now than it was when we were kids. The levels of dependents on the Government dime 20 years ago wasnt anywhere near what it is today. Its not that I want to door slammed on anyone, its that the current model is unsustainable. We still have the same percentage of folks living in the US at the poverty level than when the war on poverty started. We have created a standard of living provided by the US Government via the taxpayers and now have generations of the same family being born and dying while living on Government assistance. I see jobs open all over Lansing but the line at the unemployment office strings out the door. The days of your Father are over because the Government has shown that folks can obtain a better standard of living on assistance with no accountability. We cant even drug test recipients because its "humiliating." We cant ask that woman on WIC or welfare keep their legs closed because they have a right to continue to have children even while on the public dime, by as many fathers as they see fit.

Its unsustainable, its socially disgusting and it will drag us down as a country if it continues. We have kids being born into Government assistance that will see that as an acceptable way of life and never get motivated to be productive members of society. Heck, we have generations of this now....

Something has to give. We either set the sheer pin ourselves or the entire engine is going to blow up.

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You're welcome.
I started working at 13 washing dishes 8 hours a night after school. I took over for my brother who did it for a couple years and wanted to move onto something else. We grew up with my mom without a father ever being in the picture. My mom had it tough with no college. No money for family vacations, no money for college.

We never once received state or federal aid.

YOU'RE welcome.

Class warfare... You dont even know you are doing it but want to point out that everyone else is.

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Old September 29th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #51
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Math.

My average effective tax rate is 11%. Right now we pay a 6% sales tax. SO essentially someone in my position would pay an additional 1% in tax. I think we could swing that. National sales tax, flat tax.. Personally I think its a great idea. Eliminate the need for the IRS and filing all together.

Now, certainly for the folks that have a 0 or net negative tax liability, any type of flat tax is going to hurt them. The entire situation is a catch 22, someone is going to get screwed. I personally believe everyone should be paying some amount of income tax. Regardless of level of income. I dont care if its just $1. Either that or the level of services provided by the Government via the taxpayers needs to shrink. It doesnt work and the proof is right in front of everyone.

Reading.
I stated that I was talking about the person who is barely getting by. If you are currently paying 11% in income tax I was clearly not talking about you.
And the 9% sale tax would be on top of the current 6%, so the total would be 15%.

We would still need the IRS with a flat tax. Maybe it could be smaller, but any reduction in size would be more than made up for with the added bureaucracy and infrastructure for collecting the nation sales tax.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #52
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It is a different time now than it was when we were kids. The levels of dependents on the Government dime 20 years ago wasnt anywhere near what it is today. Its not that I want to door slammed on anyone, its that the current model is unsustainable. We still have the same percentage of folks living in the US at the poverty level than when the war on poverty started. We have created a standard of living provided by the US Government via the taxpayers and now have generations of the same family being born and dying while living on Government assistance. I see jobs open all over Lansing but the line at the unemployment office strings out the door. The days of your Father are over because the Government has shown that folks can obtain a better standard of living on assistance with no accountability. We cant even drug test recipients because its "humiliating." We cant ask that woman on WIC or welfare keep their legs closed because they have a right to continue to have children even while on the public dime, by as many fathers as they see fit.

Its unsustainable, its socially disgusting and it will drag us down as a country if it continues. We have kids being born into Government assistance that will see that as an acceptable way of life and never get motivated to be productive members of society. Heck, we have generations of this now....

Something has to give. We either set the sheer pin ourselves or the entire engine is going to blow up.



I started working at 13 washing dishes 8 hours a night after school. I took over for my brother who did it for a couple years and wanted to move onto something else. We grew up with my mom without a father ever being in the picture. My mom had it tough with no college. No money for family vacations, no money for college.

We never once received state or federal aid.

YOU'RE welcome.

Class warfare... You dont even know you are doing it but want to point out that everyone else is.
Maybe your Mom should have kept her legs closed and things wouldn't have been so tough for her. My parents waited until my Dad was done with college before having kids. I guarantee that my Dad was paying more in taxes than you Mom was.
Thanks for nothing.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 09:55 PM   #53
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your personal attacks on one another are very colorful, but denoting your tax bracket and arguing what your parents payed is inconsequential.

The elites of our nation are using the legal system, the laws they pay lobbyist's to promote, and our free trade agreements to increase their own wealth. In doing so they are removing jobs from our market and increasingly globalizing the economy. This might be all fine and dandy for whoflungdung in China (or any other nation we have mobilized towards), but it comes down to hurt you and I.

The real conundrum here, is how do we promote national growth first, maintain job growth, place a handle on inflation and get our economy back on the fast track? Until this happens we will see more jobs lost and our dollars will continue to buy less and less - furthering the class divisions and creating domestic turmoil.

People will only take so much before they break down, then we will have a revolution.



As Snafu6 said, just wait for the hope and change crowd. They'll lower energy costs gradually until election time then they will more than likely spike back up. Industrialist societies depend on cheap energy to function. This will get us back on track for a short time, then who knows? Corporate greed will kick back in and they'll more than likely ride this horse into the ground.
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Old September 29th, 2011, 10:50 PM   #54
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....

#1 The disparity of wealth and income has been growing for most of the last several decades, and I think this is a bad thing for the future of this country.
Here is a NY Times article written in 2002 about the return of the Robber Barrons which you might find interesting: http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html

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Consider the description of executive behavior offered by John Kenneth Galbraith in his 1967 book, ''The New Industrial State'': ''Management does not go out ruthlessly to reward itself -- a sound management is expected to exercise restraint.'' Managerial self-dealing was a thing of the past: ''With the power of decision goes opportunity for making money. . . . Were everyone to seek to do so . . . the corporation would be a chaos of competitive avarice. But these are not the sort of thing that a good company man does; a remarkably effective code bans such behavior. Group decision-making insures, moreover, that almost everyone's actions and even thoughts are known to others. This acts to enforce the code and, more than incidentally, a high standard of personal honesty as well.''
Humm...sure sounds like how the financial sector rolls today...<heavy sarcasm>




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….

Ignorance will be our demise and it will lay squarely at the feet of the board of education. A government agency.
…..
So now it is the government’s responsibility to teach basic morality to our children? What about parents’ responsibility to raise a decent, productive citizen?

From the article referenced above: “Managerial self-dealing was a thing of the past…” Well its back with a vengeance! The moral “code” got kicked to the curb sometime in the 70s when the “greed is good” era started. Now it is all about what everyone can get for themselves without any concern whether it is good for the company, its employees or the nation as a whole. Seems people don’t even consider whether a choice is good for themselves in the long run, let alone give the slightest thought about how it affects others. That greed and selfishness is not limited to any one group, it is pervasive at all levels in American society. Please explain to me how that is all the government’s fault.

The point being that business and government are run by people. It is individual people who make the decisions and it is each individual’s moral compass which guides their decision making. For some time now society’s moral compass has been set to greed and personal enrichment before all else. Imho that is the root cause of how we got where we are today and little will change until that basic underlying morality changes.

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It is a different time now than it was when we were kids. The levels of dependents on the Government dime 20 years ago wasnt anywhere near what it is today. Its not that I want to door slammed on anyone, its that the current model is unsustainable. We still have the same percentage of folks living in the US at the poverty level than when the war on poverty started. We have created a standard of living provided by the US Government via the taxpayers and now have generations of the same family being born and dying while living on Government assistance. I see jobs open all over Lansing but the line at the unemployment office strings out the door. The days of your Father are over because the Government has shown that folks can obtain a better standard of living on assistance with no accountability. We cant even drug test recipients because its "humiliating." We cant ask that woman on WIC or welfare keep their legs closed because they have a right to continue to have children even while on the public dime, by as many fathers as they see fit.

Its unsustainable, its socially disgusting and it will drag us down as a country if it continues. We have kids being born into Government assistance that will see that as an acceptable way of life and never get motivated to be productive members of society. Heck, we have generations of this now....

.......
So you really believe the current situation is all because of welfare run amuck? Ok, take the small town folks whose major manufacturing facility was shut down and sent to Brazil. Not long before the decision to shut it down the company expanded that small plant and invested probably half a mil in just filtration equipment alone (I did the startup). Good hard working people doing their jobs until some new female financial exec with all the great management ideas taught in the great schools made a decision based on profit. Lives changed forever, our country weakened that little bit more by the loss of yet more manufacturing jobs. I’m guessing the executives and BOD got a little richer when their stock options went up in value in the short term….but what is the long term cost? Repeat this story over and over and over again throughout our country. I have seen it time and time again in the round cutting tool industry. So now explain to those people who invested blood and sweat into their company only to have their jobs yanked out from under them, and worse yet, those jobs will never return so now their kids cannot have the opportunities they did, please explain how welfare took their jobs. My dad said business in this country really changed when the financial guys started running the show. He was an executive vice president at a large corporation and had a front row seat to the transformation. He retired in the mid 80’s, disgusted with how the company was being run.

Should welfare be revamped, probably. Is it the root of our society's moral decay, doubtful. It is more likely the decay started at the top decades ago and has trickled down.



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Old September 29th, 2011, 10:53 PM   #55
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so what you are saying is that most of us believe that you get what you work for...

I am also with whiterhino, flat tax acrossed the board.
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I am a proponent of a flat tax.
Yes, but with a twist. All taxes (business, personal, etc) and disguised taxes (ie fees, etc) should be abolished and one flat rate tax without loopholes established.

It could never happen because it would make it too easy for people to see true amount of tax the government levies on us citizens. As it is, in addition to the direct taxes we pay, we are also paying the business taxes every time we buy something, but since it is buried in the cost of the product it tends to go unnoticed. And that is just the way the government likes it.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 07:08 AM   #56
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Maybe your Mom should have kept her legs closed and things wouldn't have been so tough for her. My parents waited until my Dad was done with college before having kids. I guarantee that my Dad was paying more in taxes than you Mom was.
Thanks for nothing.
wow, that's just out of line.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 08:15 AM   #57
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wow, that's just out of line.
Kinda what I was thinking. Mr. 2 yr drawerer degree guy talking down on society from his Union design job...........if I had to guess. I could be wrong though, it's happened before.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 08:19 AM   #58
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Kinda what I was thinking. Mr. 2 yr drawerer degree guy talking down on society from his Union design job...........if I had to guess. I could be wrong though, it's happened before.
Brewmann isn't union. He has a good job, and doesn't qualify as one of the people who is not paying taxes and milking off the government. His mindset is a bit different then mine, but I see his point, I just don't agree with it.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 08:20 AM   #59
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Maybe your Mom should have kept her legs closed and things wouldn't have been so tough for her. My parents waited until my Dad was done with college before having kids. I guarantee that my Dad was paying more in taxes than you Mom was.
Thanks for nothing.
Poor statement. For all you know his dad could have been in the military and KIA, or killed in a car accident, or killed at work. There's a lot of people who have been on hard times for a variety of reasons that never milked the system.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 08:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Brewmann isn't union. He has a good job, and doesn't qualify as one of the people who is not paying taxes and milking off the government. His mindset is a bit different then mine, but I see his point, I just don't agree with it.
Damn, twice in one day. I quit the interwebz.
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Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

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