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Old October 19th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #41
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Yes, at our shows each vehicle is teched in by an officail.
For the first time in history, at the Sand Lake race 'WE' did not. However, Tim Bunker and his crew were responsible for teching at his race in Sand Lake.

Our rules have never allowed alcohol in any mud bog, only mud drag racing. And believe me, you can smell alcohol burning, no one was burning it.

As is stressed at the drivers meeting. If you think something is wrong, bring it up THEN.
I will concede on the Alcohol, because you probably have a better knowlege then I on that subject. However, there was a chevy truck parked right at the beginning of the pit, that should have not been in the street class.
Also, if we are going to be honest,......your drivers meeting was a joke. We listened to a1/2 hour of lecture on your business, by the time you got to the rules, eveybody had tuned you out.
I don't know you personally, I think you probably run one of the better races, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

I'm not the enemy, I paid a lot of money to compete, and I feel I had no chance to win. Because of this, instead of me running, 2-3 classes and paying for my family to come watch. I will probably only run 1 class, and I will be by myself.

Its not fun to get your @$$ handed to you, everytime you go. I'm sorry that I don't feel the need to give away my money and I hope we can make a change for the good.
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Old October 19th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #42
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I will concede on the Alcohol, because you probably have a better knowlege then I on that subject. However, there was a chevy truck parked right at the beginning of the pit, that should have not been in the street class.
Also, if we are going to be honest,......your drivers meeting was a joke. We listened to a1/2 hour of lecture on your business, by the time you got to the rules, eveybody had tuned you out.
I don't know you personally, I think you probably run one of the better races, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

I'm not the enemy, I paid a lot of money to compete, and I feel I had no chance to win. Because of this, instead of me running, 2-3 classes and paying for my family to come watch. I will probably only run 1 class, and I will be by myself.

Its not fun to get your @$$ handed to you, everytime you go. I'm sorry that I don't feel the need to give away my money and I hope we can make a change for the good.
First and foremost, thanks for the constructive input. Agreed, there is plenty of work to be done. There is always room for improvement and innovation.
You are not viewed as an enemy. We don't want enemies, we don't race anymore, we just promote races. Keeping racers happy and coming back is our goal. Not just racers either, our mission is to provide safe venues where racers can come together and fairly compete while showcasing their rigs off to the public. At our race in Reed City this year, ALL FEES were lowered.


What we are lacking is input. Our original rules format was voted, implemented and amended as drivers expressed concerns and continued dialog over the years. Over the last few years, the constructive input, communication, and dialog has been minimized.

We do have a fuel tester and would have loved to use it. Each driver is equally responsible for following the rules just as we are for enforcing them.

What chevy truck and why? I assume we are talking about the Pro-street class and not the factory.

A joke? I am sure Rick was trying to drive home a couple of points which were overlooked. He was not talking about our business so much as the mud racing industry as a whole, trying to get racers to think about the big picture. The idea was, that the local, state and national mud racing industry is changing. The changing market should be an interest and passion that racers and drivers follow and be active in rather than tune out as in recent years. We are just as guilty of tuning out and loosing interest the whole picture. Both on the the regional and local level. We spent more time 'at' events this season than ever. Researching, not racing, not promoting.......trying to tune back in.

Last edited by momsmotorsports; October 19th, 2010 at 11:35 AM.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 01:22 AM   #43
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From looking at these, looks like Adrenaline will be competing everywhere except stock
Henry has no 4 link, and as far as stripping, more of his truck is there than some of the guys who currently run pro street.

Will forcing new comers and locals to compete against trucks like his open up the market(ie:bring more people out to race)?
Yes I guess he will be running all the class's. What class is it that he can not run right now and why? I pretty much know what the rules are and have a hard time with the fact that my 350 hp SBC with aluminum heads has to run super stock. What do the heads save me? 70 lb s? Most aftermarket cast heads now days are just as good as aluminum. Like most racers I to am on a budget and can not afford/desire to spend $20,000 on a mud racer to win $200.
As long as you have people traveling to race it will be hard for the local and n ewcomers to compete. I thought that was where the stock class came in but even there how is the stock guy going to feel about running his truck against jeeps/trucks that are not even close to looking streetable? Than make him run against 44" tires. I am sure that he is not going to think that is fair either.
It just seems like we are on a never ending battle to try and eliminate anyone that happens to come out with big dollar racers. This is not new. I remember when the original "chemical reaction" came out and kicked everyones ass. Rules changhed. For the better at that time.
I kn ow I do not have the answers but like many others I do know that if I have no/very remote chance of winning to will not be racing. Yes I run for fun but f you are not racing to win why bother. There are lots of play holes where you can run all day for the same money or less.
One more thing to the moms people. You guys have vastly improved in your internate use since that issue we had a few years ago and I congratulate you on that. Hope to see ya again next summer. I uess I will have to build something new.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #44
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Stock should mean "STOCK" not engine upgrade, axles, mufflers, etc. up to 33" tires.
Modified......up to 36" tires w/ engines upgrade, axles, open exhaust.
Super mod...38" and up tires w/ Power adder
Umlimited.....Cut tires anything go's hope ya brung enough

I also think they should split jeeps and other vehicles up!
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #45
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I know this isn't mud running but it is 4x4 racing nonetheless, this is where guys are going who used to race in the mud. Many reasons, but most of all you get more seat time. This race was 4 hours long and no bitching\crying\wining about who has what for tires\motor\body\no body and so forth. I think if you don't settle on some common ground you'll lose even more drivers to this type of racing. Did I mention it was fun!



Hope you guys figure it all out, I do enjoy going to the local mud runs. Love watching the newbies as well as Tim with his Ford, Twisted Too. I would love to see Henry with Adrenaline at Racing Jason's this summer or at Dad's mud run as well. Good Luck.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by momsmotorsports View Post
From looking at these, looks like Adrenaline will be competing everywhere except stock
Henry has no 4 link, and as far as stripping, more of his truck is there than some of the guys who currently run pro street.

Will forcing new comers and locals to compete against trucks like his open up the market(ie:bring more people out to race)?
Thats ok...He has a bad ass truck that fits the rules. Or does it? I have never seen the motor. Eveything else is very straight forward. That shouldn't deter anyone. The guy who has pro-cuts , 4-link, or coil overs is the issue.

The questions you need to ask as promoters are:
Why aren't people coming? What do they say when they attend (positve or negative)? Is the change possibele and or cost effective?

The things that I hear people say are: How is it that I have to race against that.... EX stock jeep w/ small block chevy w/ carb intake and headers gets pitched in pro street. Or some guy gas tank in bed because old one rusted out. Or non functional lighting,,,,it can go on and on.

My point is if you make simple Stock type suspension, DOT tires, No Bottle, minimal stripping, drivetrain in stock location, + safety equipment.

LET EM RUN...

As far as bad ass trucks go (like Henry's) good for him, he's kicking everyones ass with your rules. The fact still remains that the places that had the least amount of performance restricting rules had the most rucks and spectators all summer.
Maybe we should talk about pay-back structure next that should be a good read...LOL

Mikey
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Old October 20th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #47
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Stock should mean "STOCK" not engine upgrade, axles, mufflers, etc. up to 33" tires.
Modified......up to 36" tires w/ engines upgrade, axles, open exhaust.
Super mod...38" and up tires w/ Power adder
Umlimited.....Cut tires anything go's hope ya brung enough

I also think they should split jeeps and other vehicles up!
Ahh the age old "Jeep Thing" can't beat em Join em!

Some place have done that , all it did was split the money up even farther. Not to mention I have been beat by plenty of good running trucks...I understand your point. As far as your rules, you would find that tire size doesn't equate to the amount of mods. It would probhably complicate things more.
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Old October 21st, 2010, 04:08 PM   #48
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Ahh the age old "Jeep Thing" can't beat em Join em!

Some place have done that , all it did was split the money up even farther. Not to mention I have been beat by plenty of good running trucks...I understand your point. As far as your rules, you would find that tire size doesn't equate to the amount of mods. It would probhably complicate things more.
How many Jeeps compared to Blazers do you see at the events? By the time i wedge my bbc in a jeep and other chevy parts in there the jeep would weigh the same as my blazer now.

I help @ the Boyne Falls mud run and the amount of money they pay out doesn't even come close to the amount they get. That's why it's a dieing mud bog. When you charge someone $25 a run, also they sell food and drinks on pit side, on spec side they sell all of that plus beer. I told them many times they people want more money to run...there response was well they can go somewhere else then!
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Old October 21st, 2010, 07:24 PM   #49
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How many Jeeps compared to Blazers do you see at the events? By the time i wedge my bbc in a jeep and other chevy parts in there the jeep would weigh the same as my blazer now.

Not so, I have my truck to 4020 with me in it and can't go no lighter, I know of two BBF powered jeeps with 44/9" that scale out just over 3000 and a few SBC powered jeeps between 22 and 2600. I say more power to them, We all have choices and can run them if we choose, I just choose not to.
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Old October 21st, 2010, 10:33 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Hoss Blazer View Post
Stock should mean "STOCK" not engine upgrade, axles, mufflers, etc. up to 33" tires.
Modified......up to 36" tires w/ engines upgrade, axles, open exhaust.
Super mod...38" and up tires w/ Power adder
Umlimited.....Cut tires anything go's hope ya brung enough

I also think they should split jeeps and other vehicles up!
Ya I for sure would reather run my jeep against jeeps than adrenaline or twisted too. I will let you truck guys run against them. I like stock is stock but who calls those shots. Did your truck come with a BBC opr SBC and how is anyone ever going to make those decisions. Why say 33" tires and not 30" that is closer to what stock trucks came with. Also than how about no agressive mud terrian tires. Very few came stock with them. Where will that end? PS I really still like Boyne Falls and believe that putting a circle in the track reallly makes things more fair. I do think the payback could use some adjustm,ent but only in the fact that I think the class with the most trucks should pay the most.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 09:46 AM   #51
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Ya I for sure would reather run my jeep against jeeps than adrenaline or twisted too. I will let you truck guys run against them. I like stock is stock but who calls those shots. Did your truck come with a BBC opr SBC and how is anyone ever going to make those decisions. Why say 33" tires and not 30" that is closer to what stock trucks came with. Also than how about no agressive mud terrian tires. Very few came stock with them. Where will that end? PS I really still like Boyne Falls and believe that putting a circle in the track reallly makes things more fair. I do think the payback could use some adjustm,ent but only in the fact that I think the class with the most trucks should pay the most.
That's true about the stock class. But you can usually tell whats stock and whats not. The Boyne Falls one does offer i little bit more fair, I just got on the board for there mud runs. So i'm gonna try to get the money going in the right direction. Last year we had about 40-50 vehicles per class.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 04:05 PM   #52
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The fact still remains that the places that had the least amount of performance restricting rules had the most rucks and spectators all summer.


Mikey
The Lions Club race in Berville was huge. Plenty of rules.
The St Clair County Fair race was also big.
Other than that, many of the races attended this year seemed to lack spectators. With out spectators and public interest, the market will remain stagnant.

Let's examine why new races often succeed-
A)it is a new race
B)limited/no rules
C)who knows who will show up?
D)there was public interest, both spectators and local racers.

It is no secret that racers like to use the rules, or lack their of to their advantage.

It is also no secret that each class at our races has competitive trucks that run in it. The pro street is filled with light jeeps, mikey, and matt ray. Add Frank with his new motor, Hoeze's light yota, Brendan, and Cermak Sr. The list can go on....Then You have super stock. The class used to be filled with heavy hitters ie; Henry, Bunker, El Nino, Dirty Deeds, Brown and Down, DMC Jeep, and this list can continue.

The question I beg to ask is: if a these places were to host races with the same rules(or lack of) over and over AND the same guys show up and win. Will local racers and new participants then be discouraged? Will fans not want to come out and watch the same trucks?

More Seat Time? Not many guys 'Stepped Up' to the challenge.

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Old October 22nd, 2010, 04:26 PM   #53
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I think the new "step it up" deal has a lot of potential. Personally I liked the looks of it and am sure that if all works outr next year I will participate. But like most mud runners I am not even remoterly setup to do turns and even jumps for that matter. I did have another jeep that was ready to go and had I realized/known that it was going to more based on a course than a straight shot I may very well of had that one there. Just not really ready to overheat the motor in the mud jeep and there in lays part of the whole problem. It is tough to do boith with one jeep and that becomes the problem with local/stock guys. They need the vechicles for everything and want a class that they can still have a chance in. I understand that but really do not have an answer to how that can be accomplished.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 07:47 PM   #54
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Will fans not want to come out and watch the same trucks?

Fans will come to see "Their" driver Run. Family want to be there. I still think you need to cater to all drivers, and the Spectators will come (which are not necessarily fans)

I know my family really isn't interested in going to watch, unless my nephews or myself is running. That's about 40 extra tickets.

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Old November 1st, 2010, 08:38 AM   #55
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I love the rules of racing with you guys, the run what you brung and the cut tires. But if you want to win, put more $$ into your rigs. The only rule that I'd change is not having a stopbox on the open class. You want people to run what they brung with the nitros or blown motors. Just let them run, shot the end of the pit.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 09:56 AM   #56
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[QUOTE=momsmotorsports;2397753]The Lions Club race in Berville was huge. Plenty of rules.
The St Clair County Fair race was also big.
Other than that, many of the races attended this year seemed to lack spectators. With out spectators and public interest, the market will remain stagnant.

Let's examine why new races often succeed-
A)it is a new race
B)limited/no rules
C)who knows who will show up?
D)there was public interest, both spectators and local racers.

It is no secret that racers like to use the rules, or lack their of to their advantage.

It is also no secret that each class at our races has competitive trucks that run in it. The pro street is filled with light jeeps, mikey, and matt ray. Add Frank with his new motor, Hoeze's light yota, Brendan, and Cermak Sr. The list can go on....Then You have super stock. The class used to be filled with heavy hitters ie; Henry, Bunker, El Nino, Dirty Deeds, Brown and Down, DMC Jeep, and this list can continue.

The question I beg to ask is: if a these places were to host races with the same rules(or lack of) over and over AND the same guys show up and win. Will local racers and new participants then be discouraged? Will fans not want to come out and watch the same trucks?

More Seat Time? Not many guys 'Stepped Up' to the challenge.

Frank new motor?
My truck is a tank...5090lbs...no lite s-10 here.
Just make rules so we know what to build our truck to.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 10:24 AM   #57
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I love the rules of racing with you guys, the run what you brung and the cut tires. But if you want to win, put more $$ into your rigs. The only rule that I'd change is not having a stopbox on the open class. You want people to run what they brung with the nitros or blown motors. Just let them run, shot the end of the pit.
Why even have any class's than? Just "spend more a$$" and hope you spent enough. That would truely be "run what you brung" and hope you brung enough. Just though everyone together in one class.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 11:29 AM   #58
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Sounds like some want it to be socialized and others want to keep it capitalistic. The politics of mud racing.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 01:07 PM   #59
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I will concede on the Alcohol, because you probably have a better knowlege then I on that subject. However, there was a chevy truck parked right at the beginning of the pit, that should have not been in the street class.
Also, if we are going to be honest,......your drivers meeting was a joke. We listened to a1/2 hour of lecture on your business, by the time you got to the rules, eveybody had tuned you out.
I don't know you personally, I think you probably run one of the better races, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

I'm not the enemy, I paid a lot of money to compete, and I feel I had no chance to win. Because of this, instead of me running, 2-3 classes and paying for my family to come watch. I will probably only run 1 class, and I will be by myself.

Its not fun to get your @$$ handed to you, everytime you go. I'm sorry that I don't feel the need to give away my money and I hope we can make a change for the good.
I know what truck your talking about, that was a super stock truck with Iron heads. Bunker let him run in the pro street class because he wouldn't run in classes with him and henry. I complained but did no good.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 04:48 PM   #60
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This is going to be tough... As you csn see the majority of the people out there already have thier own idea of what is right and what is wrong.. But who is right and who is wrong? And again, back to what I said earlier, no matter what, not everyone will be happy.. The poor guy with the S10, a stock running small block and straight axle conversion (Or Toyota) gets thrown into a mod class because of the straight axle.. Tough call... But we do need to get things figured out so changes can be made if needed.. Or in my case new tires!!! Even if the local runs dont do a run what you brung, there will be other places we can do this.. I think not everyone should have the same rules.. Keep things interesting and prevent one guy from dominating at every event.. Can we do a poll on this site? So that poeple can give anonymous feed back? Just thinking more people may be open to leave thier feedback if we could do this and get a more accurate idea of what people think.
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