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Old June 18th, 2010, 06:42 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz View Post
L4 taught me how to do that quote/unquote thing, so I don't think I'll have to do that anymore..... Crap.... Now I don't know how to pull up the sections you wrote to itemize my response....

Here are some:

YOU SAID: "What I don't like is a government that decides that it knows best for me and will make decisions based upon that and generate more social programs or agencies. I see the healthcare bill just as that; we couldn't get by with just getting help to those in need; we had to drag everybody into it in this bill (and *FORGOT* to cover some of the people originally intended). Statements like pelosi's claiming "We need to pass this bill first to see what it's all about" unsettle me. It's the attitude that they know what's best for us, so just shut up and accept it - attitude I see sometimes that gets tiring."

Ah yes. One of the shortcomings of a system of democratic representation... We elect someone to speak for us. The problem is that we've relinquished almost all control... WE. US. We outnumber them. We can do something about it. We can speak with our votes.

Think about it: if no one voted for a Republican OR a Democrat, and we all voted independent, green party, whatever, a whole lot of bought and paid for people would be out of jobs. A lot of new people would be in office. A lot of people in Washington would isten.

See, many people here are getting caught up in the propaganda, both left and right, which keeps us arguing with each other instead of finding common ground and marching together.

When our military is used against us in a martial law action, because Bush basically trashed our long held posse comitatus protections, will you still be arguing with me, or fighting next to me?

Don't blame it on the politicians. We are to blame. Every last one of us.
I couldn't agree with you more. It is quite the conundrum - the American people put the politicians in place and it seems nothing short of a revolution will fix it. I still think 99% of America is to pussified to stand up to their government in such a way.

I'd like to think I would be standing next to you and others fighting, but I think I am also part of that pussified America - in such a way that may be different than others, but still feel hesitant to take action.


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Originally Posted by AGoodBuzz
"Also, Bush isn't President, so stop bringing him up. This is not a discussion of "well, you don't agree with Obama, but Bush did -blah-blah-blah". Bush spent lots of money on a lot of things. Right or wrong, no matter how much good that money could've done spent elsewhere, it is a moot point. IMHO, what the current administration is doing / reacting like is based more on "Look, we're not Bush!" than they should."

Well now wait a minute. Obama inherited a crapstorm. Bush inherited a balanced budget and a national debt that was being paid DOWN. I think most of us had good jobs and everyone I knew was doing pretty damn well. By the end of the Bush administration this country was in the shitter.

Besides, people keep blaming Clinton for Bin Laden being alive, 9/11, and the current financial meltdown; and Roosevelt for public assistance... ETC. To say you can't backtrack to the responsible party is just not realistic. Funny, no one ever saw me say "Clinton isn't the president anymore, so you can't bring him up". So once a president is out of office is all history is erased?

Obama has been in office barely over a year. My job requires at LEAST 1 year just to get your feet on solid ground, and that's if you are highly experienced, and I don't have a failing economy, an illegal occupation, and all the other things to deal with.


You're something of an enigma. "Extreme Moderate" is an excellent description. If you feel that you would like to see the world start investing in renewable energy sources; end the dependence on fossil fuels and pollutants; provide excellent education and healthcare for all people; protect the rights endowed by the U.S. Constitution; limit police and military powers; foster diversity of thought, philosophy, religion, race, etc. you could wake up one morning and find out that you're a liberal....

You'll get no argument from me about Obama inheriting plenty of shit from the previous administrations, however, I feel he's doing a fairly good job of what he's been handed. That is why I asked your opinion about how he has handled the "natural disasters" since he's come into office - I think he has learned from Bush and the associated ridicule. To me, I think that is a good thing. I also think he has a few good ideas for the US, I just believe when people always fall back to blaming Bush for this or that, it takes away from what he's trying to accomplish.

He helped save GM and in turn, Michigan.
He is helping people that need healthcare (though the bill is not one I agree with, nor really in the spirit of what he initially proposed when he was running).

I guess what I try to think is that fixating on the past and assigning blame to previous administrations creates disputes / debates over issues that don't matter anymore. We need to fix the "now" instead of re-diagnosing the "then" so much. Sure, learn from the mistakes, but don't dwell on why they're mistakes.


BTW, I can't ever see myself as a "Liberal" - because I see benefits on both sides of the aisle (and elsewhere) - and try to follow and endorse the things that make sense to me. Holy shit, these days, there is so much mis-information being spewed by all media outlets I can't keep up. I'd like to take the time to research more, but damn, it's tough!

Maybe I'll see what wallbuilders is saying...
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Old June 18th, 2010, 10:13 AM   #62
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Well now wait a minute. Obama inherited a crapstorm. Bush inherited a balanced budget and a national debt that was being paid DOWN. I think most of us had good jobs and everyone I knew was doing pretty damn well. By the end of the Bush administration this country was in the shitter.

That's not a fair assessment. What you left out was that the weakness in the economy was already showing before Bush took office, and that 9/11 happened in his first year. You can argue all you want about how he handled those things, but it's naive to think that things could have stayed the same.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 04:12 PM   #63
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That's not a fair assessment. What you left out was that the weakness in the economy was already showing before Bush took office, and that 9/11 happened in his first year. You can argue all you want about how he handled those things, but it's naive to think that things could have stayed the same.
See? Now you've hit on the fact that there is no way to objectively discuss our country, our politics, our economy, etc. without talking about the evolution of it (what happened, and what happened after that, etc.).
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Old June 18th, 2010, 04:30 PM   #64
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I guess what I try to think is that fixating on the past and assigning blame to previous administrations creates disputes / debates over issues that don't matter anymore. We need to fix the "now" instead of re-diagnosing the "then" so much. Sure, learn from the mistakes, but don't dwell on why they're mistakes.

So should we ignore Bush's revocation of Habeus Corpus and Posse Comitatus?

Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122), which was signed by Bush on 10/17/06, (in a private ceremony), allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder." De facto revocaton of Posse Comitatus.

On the same day he signed the Military Commissions Act of 2006. In a sense, the two laws complement one another. One allows for torture and detention abroad, while the other controls the people at home by ordering the military onto the streets of America. Remember, the term for putting an area under military law enforcement control is "martial law."

Our founding fathers had good reason to not allow this. They did not want the president to become the dictator.

So with those facts in mind, should we still not talk about "what Bush did"?



***Interesting bit of trivia... Did you know the U.S. Military Officers Oath of Service does NOT say they must obey the President or Commander in Chief?
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Old June 20th, 2010, 01:01 PM   #65
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So should we ignore Bush's revocation of Habeus Corpus and Posse Comitatus?

......snip.......

So with those facts in mind, should we still not talk about "what Bush did"?
When trying to address current problems, such as the deficit (which is unrelated to the two things you highlight about Bush), NO. Your passion drives you to overlook what I wrote.

All I am trying to get across is that instead of people falling back on blaming Bush, they should concentrate energy on a solution now. That does not equal forgiveness or mass amnesia with respect to things past presidents have done. The fact is this: The problems we face now cannot be changed by placing blame on someone that cannot effect a solution NOW.
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Old June 20th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #66
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The president closes US waters to drilling, who is heavily invested in Brazilian drilling?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...120524166.html

I'm using someones elses post:
Quote:
The guy who funds all of the organizations supporting and affiliated with Barack (e.g., center for american progress, moveon, mybarackobama, huffington post, etc.), George Soros owns MAJOR positions in Brazilian exploration companies where they have found oil off shore in deep water.

So magically, there are now 35 or whatever deep water drilling platfoms nearby, with no work, available for rent or sale. I think the phrase is "buyer's market".

Basically, Soros just literally orchestrated a fire sale of deep water drilling platforms to his Brazilian company while shutting down all US competition.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 09:26 AM   #67
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When trying to address current problems, such as the deficit (which is unrelated to the two things you highlight about Bush), NO. Your passion drives you to overlook what I wrote.

All I am trying to get across is that instead of people falling back on blaming Bush, they should concentrate energy on a solution now. That does not equal forgiveness or mass amnesia with respect to things past presidents have done. The fact is this: The problems we face now cannot be changed by placing blame on someone that cannot effect a solution NOW.
It makes sense that we concentrate on current affairs to resolve current problems. The current president currently Sucks Ass.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 09:48 AM   #68
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Obama needed to mobilize all available government and private resources to contain the spill and prevent it from reaching shore. Action - not dithering.

Take charge and show a little leadership. He could've made BP pay for it all later.
Thats my take on it too.

He will probably just use this as a big example of why we need to go "green" and less oil dependent. I can see it coming. He will probably try to use it to help him push his shitpile Cap And Trade bill through too.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 07:30 PM   #69
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AGB

I like your timeline presentation. Would you have time to give us the rundown on the recent Nashville flooding ?

I am not up to speed on that, didn't hear much in the news [not sure why], but understand it was epic.

WW
Crickets ??

WW
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Old July 1st, 2010, 09:55 PM   #70
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Crickets ??

WW
Sorry. Been away a while. Didn't see that question posed to me. Not ignoring it.

I don't know any facts about it, so I would have to read up, but before I do that I should raise the simple and obvious question: Do you want government to handle crisis and disasters? If so, shouldn't they be given an opportunity to get involved BEFORE they happen so they can PREVENT THEM?

Now, do you still want me to read up?
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Old July 7th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #71
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I've been away too.

Depends on the crisis/disaster.

I liked the way you presented the timeline on the Georgia flooding and wondered if you had info on the Nashville flood.

WW
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Old July 27th, 2010, 03:37 PM   #72
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The president closes US waters to drilling, who is heavily invested in Brazilian drilling?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...120524166.html

I'm using someones elses post:
Where is your source that shows that Soros orchestrated this?
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