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Old May 19th, 2010, 08:13 AM   #1
MISHOWJEEPER
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Default Joe Legal VS Jose Illegal

You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have two parents, two children, and livein California .
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> Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxesdeducted.
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> Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under thetable".
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> Ready? Now pay attention...
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> Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.
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> Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has
> $31,200.00.
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> Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.
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> Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
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> Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
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> Jose Illegal has no documented income and qualifies for food stamps and welfare, Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00
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> Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $9,631.00.
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> Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy.. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.
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> Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for auto insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.
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> Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.
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> Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc.
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> Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
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> Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
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> Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
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> Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
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> Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
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> Do you get it, now?
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> If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens... You are part of the problem!
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Old May 19th, 2010, 08:55 AM   #2
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X2
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Old May 19th, 2010, 08:57 AM   #3
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ive seen this before in email forwards etc. everytime i grit my teeth.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #4
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I'm illegal but I don't have all these benefits
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Old May 19th, 2010, 09:15 AM   #5
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so what your saying is we all have to figure out how to be jose?????
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Old May 19th, 2010, 09:15 AM   #6
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X 40,000,000 Literally (at least)
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Old May 19th, 2010, 09:51 AM   #7
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Here's what I think




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Old May 19th, 2010, 09:55 AM   #8
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Is wild cat an allegory for illegal mexican?
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Old May 19th, 2010, 04:56 PM   #9
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So Jose Illegal has committed tax and welfare fraud, made possible by an American construction company, which has violated employment and tax law. And yet many conservatives seem to think the solution is to round up the ones here and send them back and build walls in the desert to try to keep them out.

We need to step back and look at why this is happening. Quite simply, the reason people typically break laws is because in their minds the rewards outweigh the risks. For “Jose Illegal” The only real risk is dying trying to get here. If he gets caught the worst thing that can happen is that he gets thrown in prison for a few years and gets sent back home no worse off than when he came here. The reward is that he provides for his family and maybe gives them a chance at a decent future. As much as some of you seem to think that hunting illegals for sport would be a good idea you have to know that that will never happen.

But about the person that hires “Jose Illegal”? The reward for hiring illegal workers is obvious, cheap labor. If that reward outweighs whatever risks he takes in doing so then this is where the problem lies. I don’t know if it’s more of a matter of a lower likelihood of getting caught, a mild punishment if he does get caught, or a combination of the two. Until this is addressed all the other measures to keep the illegals out and round up the ones here is an exercise in futility.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #10
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What punishment do you suggest is put on the businessman for the illegal comming into the country, because that is in effect what your suggesting. Illegals are breaking the law weather they are working or not, and punishing an employer because he has an employee thats breaking the law makes no sense.
How do you punish the employer that has recieved proper paper work from an illegal, I guess the employer will now be responsible for policing all documents... That should be a gas especially when an employer starts digging into your background. How much power do you give the employer relative to looking into somebodys background.
If you allow them to look into your illegal residence status then is the employer going to be allowed to look into other areas of your life in which you may be conducting illegal activitys, and why not.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 07:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
What punishment do you suggest is put on the businessman for the illegal comming into the country, because that is in effect what your suggesting. Illegals are breaking the law weather they are working or not, and punishing an employer because he has an employee thats breaking the law makes no sense.
How do you punish the employer that has recieved proper paper work from an illegal, I guess the employer will now be responsible for policing all documents... That should be a gas especially when an employer starts digging into your background. How much power do you give the employer relative to looking into somebodys background.
If you allow them to look into your illegal residence status then is the employer going to be allowed to look into other areas of your life in which you may be conducting illegal activitys, and why not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
So Jose Illegal has committed tax and welfare fraud, made possible by an American construction company, which has violated employment and tax law. And yet many conservatives seem to think the solution is to round up the ones here and send them back and build walls in the desert to try to keep them out.

We need to step back and look at why this is happening. Quite simply, the reason people typically break laws is because in their minds the rewards outweigh the risks. For “Jose Illegal” The only real risk is dying trying to get here. If he gets caught the worst thing that can happen is that he gets thrown in prison for a few years and gets sent back home no worse off than when he came here. The reward is that he provides for his family and maybe gives them a chance at a decent future. As much as some of you seem to think that hunting illegals for sport would be a good idea you have to know that that will never happen.

But about the person that hires “Jose Illegal”? The reward for hiring illegal workers is obvious, cheap labor. If that reward outweighs whatever risks he takes in doing so then this is where the problem lies. I don’t know if it’s more of a matter of a lower likelihood of getting caught, a mild punishment if he does get caught, or a combination of the two. Until this is addressed all the other measures to keep the illegals out and round up the ones here is an exercise in futility.



Fact is that each of these ideas by themselves are only half of the solution.

There needs to be some equity in the punishment here. Jose needs to have the hammer dropped on him. But so does the employer that pays or hires Jose.

A crafty Jose I am quite sure can craft some pretty good docs and fool many honest employers. But there are also plenty of employers that will look at an obviously forged document and look the other way because that will give them a short term advantage over their competition... Doesn't capitalism reward those that find advantage in the market... Even if taking that advantage is illegal. Some times there are benefits to breaking the law. These benefits need to be removed from both Jose and the employer.


We do need comprehensive immigration reform in this country. It needs to be complete and at many levels. From better fences and patrols in the desert to better enforcement at the employer level.

Both will have to give to make it work...
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Old May 19th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #12
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Kill them. it is a perfectly legitimate way to remove invaders.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Fact is that each of these ideas by themselves are only half of the solution.

There needs to be some equity in the punishment here. Jose needs to have the hammer dropped on him. But so does the employer that pays or hires Jose.

A crafty Jose I am quite sure can craft some pretty good docs and fool many honest employers. But there are also plenty of employers that will look at an obviously forged document and look the other way because that will give them a short term advantage over their competition... Doesn't capitalism reward those that find advantage in the market... Even if taking that advantage is illegal. Some times there are benefits to breaking the law. These benefits need to be removed from both Jose and the employer.


We do need comprehensive immigration reform in this country. It needs to be complete and at many levels. From better fences and patrols in the desert to better enforcement at the employer level.

Both will have to give to make it work...

Tell us the solution. We can all sit around singing Hope and Change songs, but nobody ever says what it will take to fix the problem.
Say something.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 09:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo View Post
Kill them. it is a perfectly legitimate way to remove invaders.

Steveo, even though he's a complete idiot, at least makes a suggestion...:sonicj ay:
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Old May 20th, 2010, 10:04 AM   #15
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declare war on mexico all our junk is now made in china anyways
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Old May 20th, 2010, 10:57 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
What punishment do you suggest is put on the businessman for the illegal comming into the country, because that is in effect what your suggesting. Illegals are breaking the law weather they are working or not, and punishing an employer because he has an employee thats breaking the law makes no sense.
How do you punish the employer that has recieved proper paper work from an illegal, I guess the employer will now be responsible for policing all documents... That should be a gas especially when an employer starts digging into your background. How much power do you give the employer relative to looking into somebodys background.
If you allow them to look into your illegal residence status then is the employer going to be allowed to look into other areas of your life in which you may be conducting illegal activitys, and why not.
In the scenario in the opening post the construction company is paying "under the table" indicating that they are actively participating in the fraud. I am in no way suggesting that the businessman should be punished for the illegal coming into the country, I am suggesting that the American businessman be punished for violating America's tax and employment laws. All employers in this country already have the responsibility to verify that those that are being employed are eligible to work here. If "Jose Illegal" has presented the businessman with correct looking documents and all the proper procedures are done, then no, you do not punish the businessman, for he has done nothing wrong. Presenting false documents becomes one more crime that "Jose Illegal" has committed, possibly with the help of others.

As for potential employers looking into potential employees backgrounds, they already can do that, in many cases should do that, and I believe many do do that. Most jobs I've applied to the past decade or two have you sign a paper allowing them to do that before you are given a job offer.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 12:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
In the scenario in the opening post the construction company is paying "under the table" indicating that they are actively participating in the fraud. I am in no way suggesting that the businessman should be punished for the illegal coming into the country, I am suggesting that the American businessman be punished for violating America's tax and employment laws. All employers in this country already have the responsibility to verify that those that are being employed are eligible to work here. If "Jose Illegal" has presented the businessman with correct looking documents and all the proper procedures are done, then no, you do not punish the businessman, for he has done nothing wrong. Presenting false documents becomes one more crime that "Jose Illegal" has committed, possibly with the help of others.

As for potential employers looking into potential employees backgrounds, they already can do that, in many cases should do that, and I believe many do do that. Most jobs I've applied to the past decade or two have you sign a paper allowing them to do that before you are given a job offer.

I read all that and missed any suggestion you have to remedy the problem you see.
However I did see where you believe employers have a responsibility to verify a person is eligible to work, but you never said if you believe this to be a law.
Got any ideas on how to fix the problem?????
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Old May 20th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo View Post
Kill them. it is a perfectly legitimate way to remove invaders.
You have my vote. Hang dead illegals along the border as a warning to others.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 01:04 PM   #19
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Tell us the solution. We can all sit around singing Hope and Change songs, but nobody ever says what it will take to fix the problem.
Say something.
Heavy fines for employers caught paying under the table cash to illegals

If the employer can show they are following the law and withholding taxes, have been shown valid documentation this is all Jose's problem.

Jail time for employers caught paying cash under the table to illegals a second or third time.

More armed patrols of the desert so that the border is does not more holes than swiss cheese. I would even step up security on the northern border as well.


What would you propose?
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Old May 20th, 2010, 01:11 PM   #20
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did you hear the President of Mexico say they deport illegals form central america? "If they no have documents they go away."
and Obama-al-baba just nodded his head.

I think mine spun around again watching him.
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