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Old November 21st, 2009, 09:39 AM   #61
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sawed off pistol grip 12 gauge with buck shot "come walk into my house" and rob me
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Old November 21st, 2009, 09:44 AM   #62
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I have a Springfield XD .45 and I love it.

I would not be so gung-ho to shoot someone either , even if they are in your house. When I got my CCW they put it to me like this you shoot someone you will be going to jail until it is all sorted out. You get what you pay for in handguns. My brother bought a $200 handgun (can't remember brand) new and it jams all the time.

Looking for home defense and not a carry gun nothing scares them off like a nice 12 gauge. http://www.bigskyguns.com/Model_500_...t_In_Case.html

Michigan passed a Castle doctrine a few years ago, witch means if you have a legal right to be someplace you have the legal right to defend yourself. So if you are in your home, car or even in a public park. You have the right to defend yourself with force if needed for the well being of you or someone else.

Bottom line is if someone breaks into your house or tries to car jack you. KILL THEM if you feel your life is in danger. Don't wound them.

Only pull your gun and use it as a last resort. Never shoot to wound them, shoot to STOP them and that might mean death!

That being said, there are a ton of 9MM hand guns on the market, from Cheap to big bucks. I carry a Taurus 40 cal compact. Only 1 time I thought I would need it. But like a wallet don't leave home without it!!!

Link below has great info on what is happening in the state of Michigan
http://mcrgo.org/mcrgo/
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Old November 21st, 2009, 09:55 AM   #63
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Michigan passed a Castle doctrine a few years ago, witch means if you have a legal right to be someplace you have the legal right to defend yourself. So if you are in your home, car or even in a public park. You have the right to defend yourself with force if needed for the well being of you or someone else.

Bottom line is if someone breaks into your house or tries to car jack you. KILL THEM if you feel your life is in danger. Don't wound them.

Only pull your gun and use it as a last resort. Never shoot to wound them, shoot to STOP them and that might mean death!

That being said, there are a ton of 9MM hand guns on the market, from Cheap to big bucks. I carry a Taurus 40 cal compact. Only 1 time I thought I would need it. But like a wallet don't leave home without it!!!

Link below has great info on what is happening in the state of Michigan
http://mcrgo.org/mcrgo/
careful with that interpretation of castle doctrine. a public park?

while things are somewhat more in-balance in that you have the legal right to defend yourself more than before, you are still under the auspices of deadly force being used as a last-resort form of self defense. in a public park you would still be expected to retreat if possible as a first defense.

in your home, or even seat-belted into your car in traffic, that ability to retreat can more easily be seen as extinguished.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 09:57 AM   #64
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How about a 12 gauge pump unloaded? Hear me out. Don't you think that most scumbags breaking into a house know what the clack-clack sounds like and would damn near shat themselves trying to get out of the house since they don't want to be at the wrong end of that. And if any of them get loud, swing it like a basebat. And for the ultimate scare, place a laser site on it.

Sure you're not using a gun to shot someone, but they won't be able to take it away from you and shot YOU with it.
Take a CPL class and spend time shooting and understanding the weapon.

And ever hear this expression Don't bring a knife to a gun fight! This means if you are going to defend yourself then be prepared to do so with force (real gun and ammo). Otherwise hide in your closet and hope the go away, or down the road to your Grandma's house or neighbor.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 10:30 AM   #65
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Take a CPL class and spend time shooting and understanding the weapon.

And ever hear this expression Don't bring a knife to a gun fight! This means if you are going to defend yourself then be prepared to do so with force (real gun and ammo). Otherwise hide in your closet and hope the go away, or down the road to your Grandma's house or neighbor.
I agree with everything you say but have you read the other posts, this guy seems like he is more of a danger than anything with a loaded weapon.

I agree with the knife to a gunfight, but do you really think that three scumbags breaking into your house are really going to stick, around even if they have guns, and see what you have after you chamber a round? And considering that this would be for his old grandmother that couldn't take the kick from a gun, if they do wrestle it from her they wouldn't be able to shoot her with her own gun since what are the odds of them carrying ammo with them on a B&E?
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Old November 21st, 2009, 10:42 AM   #66
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careful with that interpretation of castle doctrine. a public park?

while things are somewhat more in-balance in that you have the legal right to defend yourself more than before, you are still under the auspices of deadly force being used as a last-resort form of self defense. in a public park you would still be expected to retreat if possible as a first defense.

in your home, or even seat-belted into your car in traffic, that ability to retreat can more easily be seen as extinguished.
Yes, a public park. I dont like the term "castle doctrine" as it implies a dwelling. The actual bill is referred to as the Self defense Act of 2006. Any place you are allowed to be, you are legally allowed to meet deadly force with deadly force. In the event you are about to sustain "great bodily harm, death and or rape" you can apply deadly force. There is no obligation to retreat in those situations. It even applies for others you may come across in the aforementioned set of circumstances.

With that being said, If events are escalating but at the point where they would classify as "force less than deadly force", and one has the time/availability to retreat, one should do so. This is just good common sense, but I don't believe it to be law. In the event of a self defense shooting, we were instructed to fully expect to be arrested. Secondly we were instructed to say this and only this to the officers " I fully intend to cooperate with you, however I need my lawyer present first".

No part of a SD shooting is desireable. Well, except for the still being a live part, but the very act of saving your live has the potential to ruin it, in the form of court fees and the possible public stigma you may now have within the community, or your own family, among others.

MCL 780.972
MCL 780.793
MCL 780.974

This is a good summary of the bill... Summary
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Old November 21st, 2009, 10:56 AM   #67
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I don't think you should probably own a gun.
x2

BTW if you think everyone on here is a bunch of idiots its only because you made yourself volnerable to an untold number of people you dont know.

Last edited by Jdc215; November 21st, 2009 at 11:04 AM.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by jeepinRRT View Post
Yes, a public park. I dont like the term "castle doctrine" as it implies a dwelling. The actual bill is referred to as the Self defense Act of 2006. Any place you are allowed to be, you are legally allowed to meet deadly force with deadly force. In the event you are about to sustain "great bodily harm, death and or rape" you can apply deadly force. There is no obligation to retreat in those situations. It even applies for others you may come across in the aforementioned set of circumstances.

With that being said, If events are escalating but at the point where they would classify as "force less than deadly force", and one has the time/availability to retreat, one should do so. This is just good common sense, but I don't believe it to be law. In the event of a self defense shooting, we were instructed to fully expect to be arrested. Secondly we were instructed to say this and only this to the officers " I fully intend to cooperate with you, however I need my lawyer present first".

No part of a SD shooting is desireable. Well, except for the still being a live part, but the very act of saving your live has the potential to ruin it, in the form of court fees and the possible public stigma you may now have within the community, or your own family, among others.

MCL 780.972
MCL 780.793
MCL 780.974

This is a good summary of the bill... Summary
you and I are on the same page, and side. your second and third paragraphs are what I was trying to emphasize. do not forget, that aside from the legal implications, there will more often than not be civil implications as well.

while the law may be on your side, if a civil court can be convinced that you had the opportunity to retreat and/or avoid deadly force it will prove very costly.

worse, we are talking about split second judgment calls - and I'm not trying to dissuade someone from protecting themselves. e.g. if you aren't carrying then the choice is already made - however, the counterpoint is also true - you better genuinely be convinced that you are meeting deadly force with deadly force in defense of your life. if you're iffy on the decision then you'll probably make a poor impression during the arrest, investigation prosecution and/or civil lawsuit as well...
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:15 AM   #69
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You guys are ridiculous. his is a guy who is upset that his grandmother had a home invasion and now wants a little security in his own house, plain and simple. you need to understand that NO ONE HERE can determine by a couple sentences if someone should own a gun or not. Basically the only good suggestion out of all of this is to attend a class and then spend some time at a range to decide if it is for you. There is nothing wrong with someone exercising their right to bare arms. It is not for his grandmother if yo pay attention to his thread, it is also not for him to carry outside(a park or in his car). He wants one to keep in his house. So separate from all the bull thats flying in this thread, go to a class then to a range and throw alittle lead and then make your decision. What type make model calibre will come later. Also if your going to quote laws you'd be better off cutting and pasting to give proper info. Not even a PO can shoot someone for rape unless they believe there will be great bodily harm or death which for law enforcement means CSC 1 with a weapon. So with all that being said, if someone comes into my house, especially at night when they know someone is home, i am going to assume they mean harm to me or my famiily and deal with it accordingly
A smart man once said"It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6".
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:22 AM   #70
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You guys are ridiculous. his is a guy who is upset that his grandmother had a home invasion and now wants a little security in his own house, plain and simple. you need to understand that NO ONE HERE can determine by a couple sentences if someone should own a gun or not. Basically the only good suggestion out of all of this is to attend a class and then spend some time at a range to decide if it is for you. There is nothing wrong with someone exercising their right to bare arms. It is not for his grandmother if yo pay attention to his thread, it is also not for him to carry outside(a park or in his car). He wants one to keep in his house. So separate from all the bull thats flying in this thread, go to a class then to a range and throw alittle lead and then make your decision. What type make model calibre will come later. Also if your going to quote laws you'd be better off cutting and pasting to give proper info. Not even a PO can shoot someone for rape unless they believe there will be great bodily harm or death which for law enforcement means CSC 1 with a weapon. So with all that being said, if someone comes into my house, especially at night when they know someone is home, i am going to assume they mean harm to me or my famiily and deal with it accordingly
A smart man once said"It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6".
Who the f do you think you are? A cop?
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:26 AM   #71
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I agree with most people on here, I have well over 100 guns and love them all. While I think we should all exercise our right to own firearms, I think you are angry right now and the have a " I am going to get even with you ", or a " I'll be damned if this is going to happen to my family" mindset.
But if you are really interested in getting a firearm, what I would recommend is going to a range with someone that has several firearms and some time on the trigger. Have this person walk you through several guns, in several calibers and find what fits you best.
I can tell you this, I have introduced plenty of people to shooting and 9 times out of 10, both men and women tend to lean towards a full frame 9mm for their first gun. It's easy to shoot,clean, and easy on the wallet. I would recommend something like a sig sauer p226. If you are serious and would like to look, try, and see what fits you best, email me back and I can take you to a range and try to help you out.
By the way, I am very sorry for what happened to your grandmother and it is terrible what some people will do to other people. I do however believe in Karma and trust me when I tell you this, God will get even with them for you and it will be way worse than anything you and a gun can do. You are right when you say it's time to use a gun when it's time to defend yourself or a loved one and only then, but beprepared for what comes next. I always say " a guns is something I would rather have and not need, than need and not have."
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:39 AM   #72
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you and I are on the same page, and side. your second and third paragraphs are what I was trying to emphasize. do not forget, that aside from the legal implications, there will more often than not be civil implications as well.

while the law may be on your side, if a civil court can be convinced that you had the opportunity to retreat and/or avoid deadly force it will prove very costly.

worse, we are talking about split second judgment calls - and I'm not trying to dissuade someone from protecting themselves. e.g. if you aren't carrying then the choice is already made - however, the counterpoint is also true - you better genuinely be convinced that you are meeting deadly force with deadly force in defense of your life. if you're iffy on the decision then you'll probably make a poor impression during the arrest, investigation prosecution and/or civil lawsuit as well...
Agreed. There is also a provision in the SDA of '06 that mentions civil suits. If the shooting is found to be in self defense any civil suit must immediately cease and fees be refunded to the defendant. So, if you're clear legally you are clear civilly, which is a really good thing to have on our side. I have not spent the time to look it up yet.

When carrying a firearm to use in self defense, or using a firearm for self defense of the home you should ALWAYS be asking the question, am I meeting deadly force with deadly force. Only then is it justified.

To the OP. Carrying a gun or using a gun in self defense is nothing to take lightly. In the event to decide to go this route, PLEASE, PLEASE, loose the childlike comments and tone. Also, if you refuse to take the proper training, also, refuse to own a gun. Simple as that. I got my CPL recently and had little gun experience before I made my decision. I took the classes and have spent no lie 100's of hours on the computer, reading, researching and LEARNING. On top of the time spent at the range, learning and getting good with my weapon. Also, the simple act of breaking into your home is not enough to justify using deadly force. If an intruder enters with a stuffed rabbit in his hands you cannot shoot. Now if he enters with a gun in hand, that would be justified. Also, you cannot use deadly force to protect property. i.e. If you are standing in the living room (at the far end), some guy walks in your house, totally ignores you, you then retreat to the safe room ( I have one, albeit my bedroom of an apartment), you cannot come out guns a blazing because he is stealing your flat screen. The guy posed no threat to you're life, only your property.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:40 AM   #73
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all in favor of an IQ requirement please say "I"
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:43 AM   #74
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You guys are ridiculous. his is a guy who is upset that his grandmother had a home invasion and now wants a little security in his own house, plain and simple. you need to understand that NO ONE HERE can determine by a couple sentences if someone should own a gun or not. Basically the only good suggestion out of all of this is to attend a class and then spend some time at a range to decide if it is for you. There is nothing wrong with someone exercising their right to bare arms. It is not for his grandmother if yo pay attention to his thread, it is also not for him to carry outside(a park or in his car). He wants one to keep in his house. So separate from all the bull thats flying in this thread, go to a class then to a range and throw alittle lead and then make your decision. What type make model calibre will come later. Also if your going to quote laws you'd be better off cutting and pasting to give proper info. Not even a PO can shoot someone for rape unless they believe there will be great bodily harm or death which for law enforcement means CSC 1 with a weapon. So with all that being said, if someone comes into my house, especially at night when they know someone is home, i am going to assume they mean harm to me or my famiily and deal with it accordingly
A smart man once said"It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6".
If this is toward me, I did cite MCL

this is a legitimate question.... Aren't LEO's bound to a different set of parameters than the populous in regards to deadly force?
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:56 AM   #75
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I am an advocate of self-defense, up to and including the use of deadly force. The use of force is a responsibility that cannot be taken lightly, in anger, or quickly. To go from shooting a BB gun to using a firearm for self-defense is a huge leap and will not happen without an large investment of both time and money.

OP, you have another potential problem now. If you were to need to use deadly force, a prosecuting or civil attorney would be thrilled to read your posts here.

Last edited by chuckhubbert; November 21st, 2009 at 11:57 AM. Reason: typo
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:07 PM   #76
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We all need guns. Everyone on the same playing field.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:11 PM   #77
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You guys are ridiculous. his is a guy who is upset that his grandmother had a home invasion and now wants a little security in his own house, plain and simple. you need to understand that NO ONE HERE can determine by a couple sentences if someone should own a gun or not.
I don't blame you for missing some of his postings in this thread having joined it so late.

He stated more than once that he was not interested in taking the responsibility of gun ownership seriously by investing the time/energy to be a responsible owner. He further stated he was ok committing several felonies. (tazer, and "finishing him off after wounding him" )

there are several ways to seek information and advice. posting as a hot head, or an ignoramus is usually counterproductive

e.g. you also would not see people rallying around this guy if he posted a quest for information on how to build the ultimate mudding machine if he added up the additional information that he was looking to make sure he doesn't get caught tearing up protected wetlands...

if he was serious about getting information on how to protect himself, he would have simply posted that thread and left out all the other bullshit, and angry failed rebuttals when people called him out, or offered information he didn't want to hear.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:34 PM   #78
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yeah i read alot of the thread but had to sift through some of it if u know what i mean. The fact of the matter is he is angry. So what.I would be too and so would you unless there's something wrong with you. Many people, probably everyone on here has said something in anger. That doesnt mean he's gonna go get a gun watch a few clint eastwood movies and start stalking thugs and dirtbags at night(some of you better watch out)lol. he's upset. I have said things exactly the same and if u say you haven't, santa's watching(you're a liar). Being a gun owner for many many years I'm sure when he cools down he would take the responsibilty to go to a range and might fully enjoy the experience. Or he's talking out his ass with anger and wont go anywhere past this thread towards the process and time to purchase a gun. Either way it's talk. Myself, i would hunt the MFers down and torture them if they came into my grandmothers house. And you can show that to any prosecuting/defense attorney. because after the jury hears and sees the little old lady and 4 thugs, chances are I'm clear. lol
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Old November 21st, 2009, 12:36 PM   #79
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If this is toward me, I did cite MCL

this is a legitimate question.... Aren't LEO's bound to a different set of parameters than the populous in regards to deadly force?
I dont remember who exactly was talking law but no matter. If you did cite MCL then it was no towards you.
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Old November 21st, 2009, 01:07 PM   #80
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