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Old August 2nd, 2009, 05:38 PM   #1
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Default WAY overdue for new youth ATV laws in Michigan

The current old and outdated law [ 1991 ] that allows a youth at ANY age to operate an ORV on Michigan's designated trails, but bans the use of ATV's for use by those youth under the age of 12, should be amended. It makes 0 sense to tell anyone that it is OK to allow a 6 yr old youth to operate his Dirt Bike on the trails because it is classified as an ORV and ORV's have NO age restrictions in Michigan, but if that same kid wanted to operate an appropriately sized 4 wheeler with 4 wheels planted under his butt and is far more stable for Michigan's sandy trails, that now we are breaking the law..This ATV legislation goes all the way back to 1991 and perhaps back than when we were still dealing with 3 wheelers, this law had some merit, but today, almost 19 years later, has no merit what so ever.

How about considering this?

*Abolish the word ATV completely and turn all motorized recreational vehicles into OHV's.
*Allow the use of OHV's at the age of 6 on Michigan's designated trails with certification and adult visual supervision if under the age of 16 years old.
*Put the following age/engine size restrictions on 4 wheelers

AGES 6-9 years old--up to a maximum of 90cc engine
AGES 10-12 years old--up to a maximum of 125cc engine

AGES 13-15--if they want to operate any 4 wheeler with a engine size larger than 125cc and up to a maximum engine size of up to 350cc, they MUST take a hands-on ORV safety course from a certified ORV safety Instructor first.

At NO TIME will any youth under the age of 16 be allowed to operate any OHV that is wider than 50 inches on Michigan's Designed trail system..

The above accomplishes many things.

*It wipes out the MASSIVE confusement of what is legally termed an ATV/ORV.
*It now allows the 1000's of younger youth who are operating Dirt Bikes against their parents better judgement, to now legally operate a 4 wheeler of appropriate engine size.
*It keeps youth under the age of 16 from operating Pick-Up trucks, Jeeps, or ANY other OHV that is wider than 50 inches in width. Currently, there is a legal loop hole in this ORV law because Pick-Up trucks,Jeeps, 6x6 vehicles,Polaris Rangers,Artic Cat Prowlers, Kawasaki Mules, and a host of other vehicles classified as ORV's are actually LEGAL for our youth to operate because they are classified as ORV's, HOWEVER, in reality, they are FAR too large for the use of youth under the age of 16 years old.ALL the above mentioned vehicles are wider than 50 inches in width and under the new legislation, would now be illegal for their use by youth under the age of 16 years old.

What does everyone think?

Bill
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 11:41 PM   #2
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I like it... How are we as a group able to get the law changed???


I ride my WR on the ORV trails, but am unable to take my son on his ATV as he is only 9, but has been riding it since he was 4 (under my supervision of course). He has NO desire to ride a motorcycle, and because of this, he is unable to ride in MI with me... I do however get to take him on private prooperty here in Canada...
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 03:12 AM   #3
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Well,
for starters, we must get our legislators to tell the ENTIRE truth first. Here is a letter I received from Representative Joel Sheltrowns Aid, Brady that states why he he dont like my idea.-----------------------------------

Bill [QUOTE from Brady ]
We'd never be able to get that passed. When we were working to pass PA 240, there was a lot of controversy about allowing 12-15 year olds on ATVs on roads. When we pointed out that kids in this age range could ride on trails, a number of people seriously suggested raising the age of operation on ATVs to 16 or 18. We were able to deflect that. But opening the age issue again could very likely result in an age increase, not decrease.

The other problem we are having right now with kids on ATVs is the large problem of kids riding ATVs unsupervised, often without helmets in northern Michigan. People come up from southern Michigan on weekends and during the summer and think the law no longer applies "up north". They'll let their kids use the ATVs as toys. On a number of occasions, I've seen multiple teen on 1 ATV, without helmets, racing down the dirt road by my parent's place at Higgins Lake. We're hearing similar reports throughout the NLP and UP. Some of these kids may end up getting killed. Until we are able to curtail this through heavier fines and more enforcement, any discussion of lowering the age for ATV use is a non-starter.

-Brady
END QUOTE*

For whatever reason, Brady is partially deceiving the public when he tells you that there were discussions about kids riding ATVs with regards to PA 240,formerly HB 4323..Here is a letter back to his office on July 24th and to date, he has still refused to answer the following letter I sent to his office.

Brady, [ Quote from Bill ]

I was at both the House hearing and the Senate hearing on behalf of HB 4323, and at no time,do I ever recall anyone pointing out ONLY operators on ATV's as an issue of concern for the 12-15 year old group with respect to riding on roadways. I do recall concern taking place about the ENTIRE 12-15 yr old ORV riding group [ not just ATVer's ] operating on the roadways of HB 4323.

I find it very nerving that our legislators have no problem going after higher ORV sticker increase's with no regard to the mismanagement-misuse and abuse of our current 16.25 sticker fee's. But yet,now all a sudden after 19 years of prejudice against youth operation of ATV's in Michigan, they have real issues/concerns when it comes to allowing a youth on an ATV, the same opportunity to ride as someone who rides a Dirt Bike.

Its not just kids riding ATV's unsupervised and without helmets [ I ride over 2000 miles a year on my ATV ], I've seen it many times just the same with the Dirt Bike youth crowd too. On one hand, legislation is DOUBLING the fine for not wearing a helmet [ $500.00 ] so those that don't wear a helmet will LEARN a lesson, and at the same time, discriminating against the use of ATV's by our youth.

Simple put, nobody can legislate stupidity whether it happens on a ATV or a Dirt Bike.

We're giving the youth Dirt Bike riders a FREE PASS in Michigan to not wear helmets and ride double, do wheelie's, tear up the enviro, ect,, all the while, discriminating our youth from the same opportunity to operate an ATV. If we are going to be biased towards the operation of youth on an ATV, than we need to do the exact same thing with dirt bikes-----PERIOD!

I'm thinking you'll receive a lot more responses to this youth ATV issue in the next few weeks.
END QUOTE by Bill---------------------------------------------------

SO, WHAT CAN YOU DO TO HELP?

1.Contact Joel Sheltrowns Aid at Dist103@house.mi.gov and let him know by e-mail that you find it very discriminating and bias that for 19 years now, that Michigan law allows the use of Dirt Bikes [ ORVs ] at any age on our trail system's in Michigan,but will not allow the use of ATVs by the same age group until our is youth is 12 years old. Tell him that you do not beleive that it is ONLY our youth on ATV's who occassionally may violate ORV laws, and that it is EVERY ORV user's responsibility to uphold ATV/ORV laws. Ask him to assist with the 2010 OHV Comprehensive ORV Legislation law and add language that allows the use of ATVs by youth as outlined in Bill Gilberts plan. Have EVERY ATVer you know get their e-mails out to his office ASAP.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 09:28 AM   #4
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I think there should be a age limit on kids riding dirt bikes on michigan trails my wife was hit by 14 year old saturday in st helen he was riding with 16 year old brother kid said he was a racer and did not think about anybody else on trail both wife and kid all right just bruises on scratchs so just not atv's
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 10:40 AM   #5
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DUNNP650,
Thats what im telling our legislators, its just not kids on ATVs that we're having problems with but also the Dirt Bike community too.

Under Michigan law, any individule involved in a ORV/ATV accident resulting in injury is suppose to contact local law enforcement so a police report can be written up. If your wife would have done this,perhaps the 14 yr old parents may have received a citation for wreckless operation of an ORV and this 14 year old will think differantly the next time he rides.

I dont want to stop our young kids from riding ATVs or ORVs,we need to ENFORCE the ORV laws we have in place. This is the ONLY way this wreckless type of operation will dwindle.

Now go and do the right thing and e-mail the Rep at the address I gave you guys above. Tell him about your incident and that its just not youth on ATVs that cause some issues on the trails.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 11:17 AM   #6
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It doesn't seem fair about the age discrimination regarding the different user groups, but you're not going to get much support outside the ATV community if your intention is to drag the motorcycle users down into increased regulation, at least not from me.

Sincerely,
A motorcycle rider since before the age of 16.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 12:47 PM   #7
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It doesn't seem fair about the age discrimination regarding the different user groups, but you're not going to get much support outside the ATV community if your intention is to drag the motorcycle users down into increased regulation, at least not from me.

Sincerely,
A motorcycle rider since before the age of 16.
Ebs,
Bill thinks motorcycle users get preferential treatment from the DNR from operator age to trail access to even the way the trails are kept up. He refuses to acknowledge that cyclists enjoy some perks because of the Michigan Cycle Conservation Club and the work it has been doing FOR THE PAST 40 YEARS.

He would much rather sling mud at the user group that has worked hard for what it has instead of taking the lead in organizing a similar group for ATV users.

I think he does a good job of addressing where things are not consistent and potentially unsafe (ATV safety instructors with no real safety training - just a warm body in some cases), however, he ALWAYS comes across as not liking the cycling community regardless of his intentions.

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Old August 3rd, 2009, 02:43 PM   #8
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My intentions are NOT to bring the riding age for dirt bikes down but rather to indicate how ONE SIDED this ATV and Dirtbike law is. It OK for one youth group to ride the trails, but not the OTHER? Complete BS IMO!

Scooter,
Talk all you want about the CCC's 40 years in Michigan,however, with this being almost 2010, we should ALSO be discussing the last 10 years of preferential treatment for the cyclist group, when in fact,for the last ten years, there are FAR more ATV dollars in the ORV kitty than there is cyclist dollars. Talk all you want about how long the CCC has been around, but fair game should also be concidered by who's really got the most $$ invested in Michigans ORV trail system and who gets the least attentiveness from the MDNR. You know the old saying? Money talks and BS walk's!

You think that I dont give your precious little CCC the love that you think they deserve. Well, let me say this much, up until just a few years ago, I too was a CCC member. I quit after I overheard a past Board member of the CCC threaten to pull its entire trail maintenace group out of maintaining trails IF the DNR gave up any trail maintenance miles to a ATV club. I overheard this myself at a past ORV Board meeting and about fell out of my shoe's.

It pisses me off to no end when I ride a ATV trail that was given to a cyclist grant sponsor for maintenance,and then im smacked in the face with tree branches. Than I find out that this cyclist group raked in about 260k for trail maintenance.

Slinging mud and not taking a lead?

If the shoe fits--wear it!
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 08:33 PM   #9
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My intentions are NOT to bring the riding age for dirt bikes down but rather to indicate how ONE SIDED this ATV and Dirtbike law is. It OK for one youth group to ride the trails, but not the OTHER? Complete BS IMO!

Scooter,
Talk all you want about the CCC's 40 years in Michigan,however, with this being almost 2010, we should ALSO be discussing the last 10 years of preferential treatment for the cyclist group, when in fact,for the last ten years, there are FAR more ATV dollars in the ORV kitty than there is cyclist dollars. Talk all you want about how long the CCC has been around, but fair game should also be concidered by who's really got the most $$ invested in Michigans ORV trail system and who gets the least attentiveness from the MDNR. You know the old saying? Money talks and BS walk's!

You think that I dont give your precious little CCC the love that you think they deserve. Well, let me say this much, up until just a few years ago, I too was a CCC member. I quit after I overheard a past Board member of the CCC threaten to pull its entire trail maintenace group out of maintaining trails IF the DNR gave up any trail maintenance miles to a ATV club. I overheard this myself at a past ORV Board meeting and about fell out of my shoe's.

It pisses me off to no end when I ride a ATV trail that was given to a cyclist grant sponsor for maintenance,and then im smacked in the face with tree branches. Than I find out that this cyclist group raked in about 260k for trail maintenance.

Slinging mud and not taking a lead?

If the shoe fits--wear it!
I have made it clear in past posts that I am happy with the work the CCC does to keep trails open for me. I do not have the time to commit, so I pay them handsomely to keep up the good work. Besides, I'm not the one that keeps bitching about how much better motorcyclist have it better than ATV riders and that it is unfair. I'm happy giving the CCC my money to keep trails open.

As for branches smacking you in the face, are you that dense to realize foliage grows faster that can be trimmed in the summer? I take tree limbs to the head and neck at way faster speeds than you do on your ATV. I think you have a run in your pantyhose, Alice.

ZOMG!!!

CCC Conspiracy to smack ATV riders with branches!!!1!1!!ololololz

Like I said, if there are so many ATV users out there that are feeling neglected, organize and work with the DNR as a large user group. Cyclists, snowmobilers (OMG!!!! They won't let us on their trails in teh summartime!!1!!) and hunters have all joined together in their respective groups to get what they want from the state.

Sounds to me like you're missing the entire point of organizing and working with the DNR as a large user group.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 02:40 AM   #10
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Your the only one here too dense to realize that I am also well aware that when grant sponsors agree to take on a trail for maintenance, that they have a spec guideline booklet that they are ''suppose'' to follow for brushing back limbs and that these maintenence runs are suppose to be done 2x during the summer months? With that said, there is not a reason in the world that any rider should be constantly taking branches upside his helmet or body during a summertime ride.

I have found that thru the years,in most cases, there is no working WITH the MDNR..It is either 100% THEIR WAY, or hit the highway..These clowns are paid thru user fee's and one of their first priorities should be to have a working relationship WITH user groups who pay them.

For 6 years now, I have been TRYING to work WITH the DNR to FIX an ORV Safety program that they screwed-up 100% from the minute they took it over on OCT 1st of 2003. I've spent my OWN $ and countless trips going to Lansing trying to work WITH them, only to be disappointed and mis-lead into thinking that in the end, they [ DNR ] would do the RIGHT thing with this program. Today, the end result is they dont give a damn what the User's want out of this safety program and its now one of the worst ORV Safety Programs in the entire Country. All my trips and time to Lansing to work WITH the DNR and for WHAT? Brag all you want about them, however, I beleive them to be the most arrogant Law Enforcement Agency out there. They'll read into laws so as to best fit their OWN agenda's and not the REAL intent of that law. I've proven this over/over before.

And let me tell you something else before you continue on with your nonsense about how I need to join/form/support a large group of User's to get what we want out of the State . You see Scooter, you may not beleive this, but there are MANY other user groups such as hunters, snowmobilers, ORVers that feel EXACTLY the same way that I feel about the MDNR and we have banded TOGETHER to form a club called the Michigan Wildlife and Business Assoc who's goals are ,

TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE MICHIGAN CITIZEN AND TO LET THEIR VOICE BE REPRESENTED AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF STATE GOVERNMENT.

Perhaps YOU should coincider joining these group of outdoorsmen which consists of Sportsmen, Wildlife Feeders, Farmers, Business Owners, ORV'ers, Snowmobilers and Outdoor Enthusiasts who have had it with all the bureaucratic BS from the MDNR and the NRC, and quit calling out others who have already been where only you wished you could be.

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Old August 4th, 2009, 06:38 AM   #11
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Brag about the DNR? Me?

You need to take a poop, smoke a joint, then eat some fruit loops before you read my posts - you're wound wayyyyyy to tight.

The DNR, for the most part, is full of idiots that wouldn't know conservation if you dressed it up as a sheep in lingerie and sat it in front of them with its tail in the air. The DNR is now seen as a source of income for our states failing economy. If you have noticed, the DNR is selling all of the timber it can to de-foresting companies, and not bothering to replace what they strip out. On occasion, I see efforts at "thinning", but it is usually clearcutting with a lot of damage being done by the machines the timber companies use.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 01:19 PM   #12
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QUOTE by Scooter
Sounds to me like you're missing the entire point of organizing and working with the DNR as a large user group.
END QUOTE*

Sorry Scooter,
I took the above quote from you as someone who cherished the DNR and that you did'nt know that there were groups out there that actually have alot of distrust in them.

But I can see clearly now, after your last post, that indeed, I was wound a little too tight.

Glad we agree on this one.

Bill

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Old August 4th, 2009, 02:18 PM   #13
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^ 100% agreed!!! On the kid thing though, I have taken my son on the trails "up north"
(kalkaska area) from age 12 on with his 90CC ATV. He has been through the proper training, is certified, carries his cert. card, and is dressed in full gear. He is not allowed on the roads at all and I am right behind him. Now that he's 14 I fully intend on having him become comfortable driving my Jeep on private property and he will be on the trails, rocks, and dunes with me sitting beside him as soon as he has his driver's ed permit.
I do agree that there is a lot of idiots out there that use an ATV as a mechanical baby sitter, but with the correct upbringing and training we shouldn't "brand" young riders with a negative stigma.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
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QUOTE by Scooter
Sounds to me like you're missing the entire point of organizing and working with the DNR as a large user group.
END QUOTE*

Sorry Scooter,
I took the above quote from you as someone who cherished the DNR and that you did'nt know that there were groups out there that actually have alot of distrust in them.

But I can see clearly now, after your last post, that indeed, I was wound a little too tight.

Glad we agree on this one.

Bill
Yes, the DNR sucks.

You may be wound a little too tight sometimes, but your passion for the sport is admirable, and I can see how you get frustrated dealing with DNR inconsistencies, double-talk, favoritism and general stupidity.

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Old August 4th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #15
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yeah you do realize that atvs tear up the environment more than dirt bikes do.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #16
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other than that im all for getting youths to ride atvs because they are safer
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Old August 4th, 2009, 02:59 PM   #17
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The DNR are for the most part a bunch of badge wearing morons. Granted some are smart and work hard at keeping people safe and nature...naturey??? haha. It just seems like for every 1 good one there are 5 idiots.

As far as the ATVOHVPICKAFRICKINACRONYM.....Kids should always have adult supervision up to the age of at least 16 when on the trails. Ive definitly been clipped or hit by kids on dirtbikes and quads while in the trails because they take blind corners at full throttle. Ive bruised ribs and broken parts because of kids not paying attention to markers. Some are responsible, BUT they usually had a parent with them. Which is the way i think it should be. So i agree but i dont want a 10 year old riding the trails, I think thats to young and to easy for the rider to get hurt and i dont think many parents would want to deal with that on their chest for the rest of their lives.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 04:30 PM   #18
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yeah you do realize that atvs tear up the environment more than dirt bikes do.
I would disagree with you on that. Go ride any singletrack section of the MCCCT and tell me how much worse it could get from a quad.

Most ATV users I have met on the trail are out riding at safe speeds and not contributing to the whoops Michigan is famous for. There are exceptions, but I think ATVees are far less damaging to the trail than motorcycles (unless they try to ride singletrack and widen it up).
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Old August 4th, 2009, 05:10 PM   #19
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no one under 12 should operate any motorized vehicle. they should be passengers with a parent. jmho
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Old August 4th, 2009, 06:33 PM   #20
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With all due respect, im going to disagree with a few of you guys that say kids should'nt be riding the trails on dirt bikes or ATV's until they are 12-14 years old. Here's the catch though.

ATVing and dirt bike riding is a sport that I beleive should be enjoyed by our youth at the age of maybe 6 or 7 years old just like most other outdoor sporting events,so long as they have the following

* RESPONSIBLE Adult visual supervision
*Attended an ACCREDITED ATV/ORV safety education class WITH a parent and posses a valid safety certificate.

Im one that believes in starting my kids out in life participating in all the ''FAMILY'' things that we can, as early in life as we can.I dont want my kids to have to wait until they are 12-14 yrs old to ride the trails with me because if they have to, I feared that when they reached the legal age at which they can ride with me, that they will no longer posses an interest in doing the ''FAMILY THINGS''so much anymore [ I did this to MY dad ] and that their newly founded focuses would be more directed towards doing things with their OWN age group such as football, baseball, basketball, ect ect ect. I had my son riding his ATV at the age of 3yrs old and he was very good at it. Took him on the trails with me at the age of 5 and we never encounterd ANY issues we could'nt deal with. Now sure, this kid is now 29 yrs old,and things have changed alot since than,but even TODAY, it still comes down to being a RESPONSIBLE adult with whatever you choose to do with you youth.

Remember fellows, Michigans Designated ORV trail system is NOBDY'S race track and should not be treated like this by anyone. If you dont want the youth on the trail system because YOU as an adult want to CHALLENGE your skill level and put everyone else at risk who rides it, than you need to get off the trail and onto a D-14 race.
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