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Old April 2nd, 2009, 02:24 PM   #21
84Scrambler
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Originally Posted by fukkinrizzo View Post
I would be interested to see your source of this info. I always thought that "not for hire" meant exactly what it says. a commercial truck or a private truck can both be "not for hire"
This was discussed at length on one of the diesel sites in a towing forum. One of the guys was towing his own stuff on a gooseneck and had "not for hire" on his truck. He got pulled over and was given a huge hassle for not having a CDL, log book, etc... The officer told him that putting that on the side indicated the truck was commercial. The thought is that it should only be put on commercial rigs that are not in the business of hauling for other people. A NASCAR racing team rig for example would be commercial, but would not be in the business of hauling other people's stuff. There is nothing in the laws about this, but putting it on the side can just cause more problems. If they see "not for hire" they also expect to see the DOT numbers listed there as well. If not, they may pull you over just to check for log books, DOT numbers, safety equipment, etc...
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 04:29 PM   #22
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You can’t be serious! My pickup truck might be a CMV?

Did you know that your company pickup truck just might be defined as a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) according to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSRs)? You may be thinking to yourself, “But I’m not hauling cargo with the truck so it can’t be a commercial motor vehicle,” or “This truck is way too small.”

In order to understand how and when some of your company’s smaller vehicles suddenly become CMVs, consider the following:

Commerce involves anything that is the furtherance of business, such as hauling supplies and tools to and from a worksite, dropping off workers, or just visiting a worksite during the course of business. If you are not hauling freight for someone else, you can still be considered a private (motor) carrier.
The weight of the truck, load, and any trailer you may be transporting are included in the 10,001 pounds or greater definition of CMV found in §390.5. This includes the manufacturer’s specifications of the truck by itself (i.e., Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)) or with a trailer (i.e., Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR)). If you exceed the manufacturer’s weight specifications, and the actual weight of the vehicle and load, with or without a trailer, is 10,001 pounds or greater, this is considered a CMV based on Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or Gross Combination Weight (GCW).
Any size vehicle is subject to the safety regulations if it is hauling placardable amounts of hazmat.
Even if the trailer is only a small utility trailer, if it places you at the 10,001 pounds or greater, you are now operating a commercial motor vehicle. If the vehicle only meets the definition when pulling a trailer, you would only be concerned about observance of the safety regulations on those days it meets the definition. This includes USDOT markings on the side of the truck and properly secured cargo. The pickups may have to stop at roadside inspection stations also.

When you find your pickup meets this CMV definition, whoever drives this vehicle must be completely qualified under Part 391, including a copy of the medical certificate on the person of the driver when operating the truck. And the driver must comply with hours-of-service regulations. Even if he or she utilizes one of the short haul exceptions in §395.1(e) (i.e., 100-air-mile radius driver or 150-air-mile radius non-CDL driver), you will need to make sure that he or she does not exceed the daily on-duty hours, does not drive more than 11 of those hours, and has at least 10 hours off between tours of duty. In addition, you will need to make sure that the driver, even if he or she does not operate the vehicle every day, is able to drive based on the 60- or 70-hour rule. If the driver cannot meet the conditions set forth in §395.1(e), he or she would have to complete a driver’s log for the day the vehicle is used as a commercial motor vehicle.

The pickup truck and trailer are also subject to vehicle inspection and maintenance rules. On those days that the vehicle meets the definition of commercial motor vehicle, the driver must conduct a pre-trip inspection per §396.13 and §392.7 and be satisfied that the truck and trailer are in safe operating condition. The driver must also document a post-trip inspection in accordance with §396.11. The next time the pickup truck and/or trailer is used this report must be maintained and reviewed prior to operation, even if days, weeks, or months elapses. You must also retain records on the annual/period inspection of both the truck and trailer, including the appropriate documentation while on the road (i.e., inspection stickers or a copy of the inspection forms). In addition, you would be expected to present maintenance records on the truck and trailer in the event of an audit.
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 08:00 PM   #23
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I'm getting more and more lost in this. My wife's van and my truck both easily exceed the 10,000#'s with an empty trailer. So what if I'm hauling my dad's tractor to my house to use it? Am I now a CMV? I drive my work truck all day every day with a regular license, and never had a problem. RB
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 08:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler View Post
This was discussed at length on one of the diesel sites in a towing forum. One of the guys was towing his own stuff on a gooseneck and had "not for hire" on his truck. He got pulled over and was given a huge hassle for not having a CDL, log book, etc... The officer told him that putting that on the side indicated the truck was commercial. The thought is that it should only be put on commercial rigs that are not in the business of hauling for other people. A NASCAR racing team rig for example would be commercial, but would not be in the business of hauling other people's stuff. There is nothing in the laws about this, but putting it on the side can just cause more problems. If they see "not for hire" they also expect to see the DOT numbers listed there as well. If not, they may pull you over just to check for log books, DOT numbers, safety equipment, etc...
yeah I talked to a motor carrier about it and got a different answer other than it is not in the books. so using it could get you in trouble for one guy but keep you out of it for the next. cops/motor carriers are always like that. They can get you at any time for almost anything if they look hard enough
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 08:54 PM   #25
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I think the biggest issues on the roads around me anymore are who's driving and what they are driving. I see so many cars & vans pulled over out here its not even funny. they profile for people bringing drugs to and from Michigan and have had some huge busts out here by Grass lake. secondly the "not for hire" on the drivers door is exactly that. my buddy got hammered for not having it hauling his 44' haulmark into Ohio & Tenn.. the cop told him he was not out to stop him from hauling it, but he needed to be legal and the "not for hire" made him legal as a non commercial vehicle.
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 09:36 PM   #26
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my post above was from the latest JJ Keller newsletter we get every week. They keep track of our DOT requirements for the company i work for. Because we are a commercial company I have to have a health card, log book, & vehicle inspection along with all the other B.S. We are going to half ton trucks just to get under the 10,000 limit. With 75 trucks on the road the company says we'll save 1 million dollars by making the change in trucks. This will include fuel and maintenance. For those of you hauling things over 10,000 never say you are making money do it, like winning at the race track, cash prizes at the fair for animals ect!
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 09:09 AM   #27
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secondly the "not for hire" on the drivers door is exactly that. my buddy got hammered for not having it hauling his 44' haulmark into Ohio & Tenn.. the cop told him he was not out to stop him from hauling it, but he needed to be legal and the "not for hire" made him legal as a non commercial vehicle.
Another case of a cop having no clue what the law is and was just looking for an excuse to pull someone over.

After some additional reading, at least in Michigan, "Not for Hire" is an INSURANCE requirement only. Some insurance companies require that on the side of COMMERCIAL vehicles that are not common carriers that will haul anything, anywhere, for anyone. This entitles them to somewhat cheaper commercial insurance. Nothing that I have ever seen in any law refers to having "Not for Hire" on the side of any truck in Michigan or Ohio. Do a search of the Ohio Revised Code or the Michigan Compiled Laws and you will not find that phrase written anywhere that relates to vehicles.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 09:19 AM   #28
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Another source of confusion is that "Private - not for hire" does not refer to personal non-commercial vehicles. Look at section 5 of the link below. That is refering to a commercial vehicle that is private, as in not a common carrier. I think many people mistake private for personal.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/m...rview-form.pdf
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 09:43 AM   #29
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I agree. maybe a sticker that says "PERSONAL USE-NOT FOR HIRE" would be the way to go. but a tell tale between commercial not for hire and personal not for hire is the name on the door. CMV's are required to have the Company name and city on the door. also a DOT number is required for private commercial carriers. but I guess not ALL the DOT officers out there can figure that out.

another thing I have heard about a lot recently is DOT busting race people ASSUMING they are winning prizes (cash or trophy). A lot of the people I talk to think a mud bog is some sort of race, like the drags. all mine are free for all.

Last edited by fukkinrizzo; April 3rd, 2009 at 09:51 AM.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 09:48 AM   #30
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I still wonder if I would be safer to have my CDL-A for when I am towing my car hauler.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 10:10 AM   #31
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. A commercial motor vehicle does not include a vehicle used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness purposes.[/COLOR]
That is still the applicable part of the law. If you aren't operating commerically, you aren't a commercial vehicle, period.

Even if you go look at those FMC standards, they spell it out clearly. A GVWR or GCWR over 10,000 doesn't make you a commercial vehicle UNLESS you are operating commercially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMCSR, section 390.5
.
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.
See the blue bit? The crap posted by GerkTJ is applicable only for COMMERCIAL vehicles. So, yeah, imagine that, if you have a pickup truck over 10000gcwr, and are using it for commericla purposes, its a commerical vehicle.

Not applicable AT ALL to private people using personal vehicles for personal purposes.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 10:50 AM   #32
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That is still the applicable part of the law. If you aren't operating commerically, you aren't a commercial vehicle, period.

Even if you go look at those FMC standards, they spell it out clearly. A GVWR or GCWR over 10,000 doesn't make you a commercial vehicle UNLESS you are operating commercially.



See the blue bit? The crap posted by GerkTJ is applicable only for COMMERCIAL vehicles. So, yeah, imagine that, if you have a pickup truck over 10000gcwr, and are using it for commericla purposes, its a commerical vehicle.

Not applicable AT ALL to private people using personal vehicles for personal purposes.

I agree with you 100%. BUT, the biggest issue I can see lately is defining what is, or what can be construed to be, commercial use? Hauling your dragster to the track where you have the opportunity to win cash or non-cash prizes can be construed as commercial. If you have a 55-gallon drug of racing fuel, you need haz-mat endorsements. Hauling a Jeep to a trail ride with product stickers that could appear to be an advertising endorsement of a sponsor, can be construed as commercial. That is the big problem. The definition of commercial can be interpreted by the DOT/MSP/Local police to be whatever they dream up. As states need more revenue, this could get uglier.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 11:35 AM   #33
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I agree with you 100%. BUT, the biggest issue I can see lately is defining what is, or what can be construed to be, commercial use? Hauling your dragster to the track where you have the opportunity to win cash or non-cash prizes can be construed as commercial. If you have a 55-gallon drug of racing fuel, you need haz-mat endorsements. Hauling a Jeep to a trail ride with product stickers that could appear to be an advertising endorsement of a sponsor, can be construed as commercial. That is the big problem. The definition of commercial can be interpreted by the DOT/MSP/Local police to be whatever they dream up. As states need more revenue, this could get uglier.
Which points out, that the real issue isn't what is law. Its what will an officer stop you for.

Its not illegal for tires to stick out 10" past the body in MI, either, but I've seen people pulled over for it.

Prizes are not commercial, though.

I don't really see any of this being an issue, though. Anyone here know anyone who've been dinged for not having a CDL when they were operating in a non-commercial manner?
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 12:07 PM   #34
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I know KB8YMF got detained at the border for a long time with his big ass motorhome. IIRC, he ended up with a Canadian issue DOT sticker even though he didn't need it.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 12:57 PM   #35
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Prizes are not commercial, though.
Unfortunately, some states disagree with you. Weekend drag racers in a few states have been busted for not having DOT registrations, logbooks, safety inspections, etc... They were cited because they had the ability to win money or prizes that have monetary value. Others were dinged because they were sporting stickers on the dragster, truck, or trailer that would be reasonably assumed to show sponsors have paid to support the team. I think it is bullshit, but that is what is actually happening in some states.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 03:32 PM   #36
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Never said my post was for private people, but the gray area is what gets people in trouble. I travel I75 from the Ohio boarder to the top of the L.P. and see DOT officers pulling over pickups and trailers all the time. Most of them have no dot numbers on them nor do they think they need them. These people are easy money for the officers now that the semi truck traffic is down. Most landscapers don't know that they need 4 tie downs per lawn mower on their trailer to be legal either. I think the law says you need brakes on both axles of your trailer also but if you look at most trailers on the road or new ones in the lots they will have only 1 axle with brakes.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 05:40 PM   #37
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Never said my post was for private people, but the gray area is what gets people in trouble. I travel I75 from the Ohio boarder to the top of the L.P. and see DOT officers pulling over pickups and trailers all the time. Most of them have no dot numbers on them nor do they think they need them. These people are easy money for the officers now that the semi truck traffic is down. Most landscapers don't know that they need 4 tie downs per lawn mower on their trailer to be legal either. I think the law says you need brakes on both axles of your trailer also but if you look at most trailers on the road or new ones in the lots they will have only 1 axle with brakes.
That's stupid. When I build my trailers I only put brakes on 1 axle because if they both lock up on a slippery road it can get ugly in a hurry. Whereas one axle will hold the trailer straight. RB
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 06:05 PM   #38
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I think the law says you need brakes on both axles of your trailer also but if you look at most trailers on the road or new ones in the lots they will have only 1 axle with brakes.
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That's stupid. When I build my trailers I only put brakes on 1 axle because if they both lock up on a slippery road it can get ugly in a hurry. Whereas one axle will hold the trailer straight. RB
That is michigan law, and has been covered several times on this board... for the car haulers we have, you need brakes on both axles.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 10:23 PM   #39
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I know KB8YMF got detained at the border for a long time with his big ass motorhome. IIRC, he ended up with a Canadian issue DOT sticker even though he didn't need it.
That is just the Canadians trying to get into his wallet.
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