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Old September 23rd, 2008, 09:47 PM   #1
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Default citation what do u thinck

I was given a citation on a primitive road this weekend violation # 324.81133e

(e) In a state game area or state park or recreation area, except on roads, trails, or areas designated for this purpose; on state owned lands under the control of the department other than game areas, state parks, or recreational areas where the operation would be in violation of rules promulgated by the department; in a forest nursery or planting area; on public lands posted or reasonably identifiable as an area of forest reproduction, and when growing stock may be damaged; in a dedicated natural area of the department; or in any area in such a manner as to create an erosive condition, or to injure, damage, or destroy trees or growing crops. However, the department may permit an owner and guests of the owner to use an ORV within the boundaries of a state forest in order to access the owner's property.

the violation # code says except on roads I was on a Primitive rd do u thinck this is worth fighting. I dont know how much the citation is he said no points on lic. Let me know what u guys thincks
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Old September 24th, 2008, 07:50 AM   #2
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He's trying to 'sell you' on pleading guilty to a misdemeanor criminal offense with the "hey I'm your buddy, giving you a break, it's no points, I'm a good guy, I don't want to jam you up" bull crap.

Fight it unless you want a misdemeanor criminal conviction on your record. You might want to ask this question here also: GLFWDA You may even get some help with the matter.

That law is arbitrary and capricious on it's face, with no recognized standard for enforcement. Unless you went out and really dug the crap out of an area (?), what's to say there was an erosive condition created? Did they go back a few days later and take pictures to prove it eroded further than it's original state based solely on your initially being there?

That law is crap
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Old September 24th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #3
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Way more information would be needed to know. Lets start with exactly where was this road?
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Old September 24th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #4
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Odds are what you were on was not a road.
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Old September 24th, 2008, 03:15 PM   #5
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just curious...who was the officer?
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Old September 24th, 2008, 04:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpjumper View Post
I was given a citation on a primitive road this weekend violation # 324.81133e

(e) In a state game area or state park or recreation area, except on roads, trails, or areas designated for this purpose; on state owned lands under the control of the department other than game areas, state parks, or recreational areas where the operation would be in violation of rules promulgated by the department; in a forest nursery or planting area; on public lands posted or reasonably identifiable as an area of forest reproduction, and when growing stock may be damaged; in a dedicated natural area of the department; or in any area in such a manner as to create an erosive condition, or to injure, damage, or destroy trees or growing crops. However, the department may permit an owner and guests of the owner to use an ORV within the boundaries of a state forest in order to access the owner's property.

the violation # code says except on roads I was on a Primitive rd do u thinck this is worth fighting. I dont know how much the citation is he said no points on lic. Let me know what u guys thincks
Pull out a county map, is the "road" depicted on the map where you were?, does this show up on any other maps?. Take a photo of the road where you were stopped, what does it look like?.. Have this information with you when you go to court. This may not prove the point of the ticket, however many Judges do apply common sense when making decisions..
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Old September 24th, 2008, 04:28 PM   #7
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the road is listed as a full road on the map it basically goes through state land, thought it was national forest, it has roads everywhere that people can hunt. no atvs allowed exept to get a deer out the DNR said. We all were in liscense vehicles and even had orv stickers, the ticket says riding an orv in closed area, no signs nothing, just a muddy road from all the rain.
I'm guessing you were with the original poster. FYI, ORV permits are only good for the st helen's motorsports area, the mounds, silver lake, and one other place that I'm missing.

Please fight it if you were in the right, because this officer will continue to ticket some who may not have access to a forum like this, and will be taken advantage of.
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Old September 24th, 2008, 04:38 PM   #8
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[QUOTE=clarkstoncracker;1300692]I'm guessing you were with the original poster. FYI, ORV permits are only good for the st helen's motorsports area, the mounds, silver lake, and one other place that I'm missing.

X2 - deer retrieval that requires leaving a signed ORV trail or route with an ATV IS NOT allowed on state or federal land.
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Old September 24th, 2008, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I'm guessing you were with the original poster. FYI, ORV permits are only good for the st helen's motorsports area, the mounds, silver lake, and one other place that I'm missing.

Please fight it if you were in the right, because this officer will continue to ticket some who may not have access to a forum like this, and will be taken advantage of.

Bull Gap, part of the National Forest system. That is the only other area we (full sized, licensed vehicles) are required to have ORV stickers.

If it was in fact a legal road, and if all you did was traverse said legal road in a manner that allowed forward motion, then you should fight it. Just because there is water in the holes does not "close" the road. Now, if you are blasting through these holes and causing excessive (judgment call) water spray, then "causing an erosive condition" could be called into play.
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Old September 24th, 2008, 06:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardiedrg View Post
the road is listed as a full road on the map it basically goes through state land, thought it was national forest, it has roads everywhere that people can hunt. no atvs allowed exept to get a deer out the DNR said. We all were in liscense vehicles and even had orv stickers, the ticket says riding an orv in closed area, no signs nothing, just a muddy road from all the rain.

From your description, you were not operating as an ORV. So this should not hold water.

Legal road + SOS license = Not An ORV
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Old September 24th, 2008, 06:37 PM   #11
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fight it
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Old September 24th, 2008, 08:03 PM   #12
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DUFFMAN QUOTE*
X2 - deer retrieval that requires leaving a signed ORV trail or route with an ATV IS NOT allowed on state or federal land.
END QUOTE*

STATEWIDE?
Off-Road or Off-Route operation OUTSIDE of a designated area is PROHIBITED, EXCEPT for licensed hunters to remove deer, bear or elk at speeds of under 5mph or less under Michigan law. So essentially, one could legally leave a designated ORV riding area with his ATV for the sole purpose of retreiving his legally tagged deer, bear or elk at speeds of under 5mph.

Bill
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Old September 24th, 2008, 08:59 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Way more information would be needed to know. Lets start with exactly where was this road?

This road is Magrudder rd Midland co. one mile north of M20. It is about a 2 mile streach. Every county map-atlas that I can find it is called a primitive rd.
Iv bean going down this road for years never had any problems. I was with four other members who were also given tickets.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 05:44 AM   #14
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I've never heard of a primitive road before.

Did the roadway you received your citation on have a NAME to it? If so, your regular Sec of State [ SOS ] licensed plate would have covered you LEGALLY being there. If it was a forest trail or forest road [no name to the roadway] that was NOT posted as being closed, or was not a section of National Forest land as posted closed, your SOS plate should have covered your operating there as LEGAL.

By chance, you were not operating in a State Game area that was posted as closed were you?
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Old September 25th, 2008, 06:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
X2 - deer retrieval that requires leaving a signed ORV trail or route with an ATV IS NOT allowed on state or federal land.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TOPWOP View Post

STATEWIDE?
Off-Road or Off-Route operation OUTSIDE of a designated area is PROHIBITED, EXCEPT for licensed hunters to remove deer, bear or elk at speeds of under 5mph or less under Michigan law. So essentially, one could legally leave a designated ORV riding area with his ATV for the sole purpose of retreiving his legally tagged deer, bear or elk at speeds of under 5mph.

Bill
I agree it is o.k. to "Retrieve" legally taken large game, Duffman, where did your info come from?



Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpjumper View Post
This road is Magrudder rd Midland co. one mile north of M20. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOPWOP View Post
Did the roadway you received your citation on have a NAME to it? If so, your regular Sec of State [ SOS ] licensed plate would have covered you LEGALLY being there.
Now doesn't "the 2-wheel drive" rule still apply, to legally be on it? There are roads by my cabin in Gladwin county that have names (Wildwood road is one to be specific) but they have been neglected for so long that they are not capable of sustaining 2 wheel drive traffic, therefore it's my understanding that they are off limits.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 08:33 AM   #16
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Now doesn't "the 2-wheel drive" rule still apply, to legally be on it? There are roads by my cabin in Gladwin county that have names (Wildwood road is one to be specific) but they have been neglected for so long that they are not capable of sustaining 2 wheel drive traffic, therefore it's my understanding that they are off limits.
My understanding is that if it's a public right of way they can't do "road closure by neglect". They would have to go through a formal road abandoning process to close it. You might actually be able to sue the county for failure to maintain the road.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 08:39 AM   #17
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I did a quick google search for Magruder Road in Midland County and I found a map that shows it. It is a 2005 county map showing road construction projects, but based on what I see, Magruder is a fairly long and prominent road. So, unless there is a section of it that turns into a seasonal road, it would seem to me that it is a standard road (even if dirt) that could be traveled by a regular licensed SOS vehicle. I obviously have no idea exactly where this is or what the conditions are, or anything else, but just the fact that I found it quite easily on a map seems to me that it's somewhat of a "real road". Shrug.

Here is the map I found online. Magruder runs north-south across M-20. It breaks a couple times and continues near the north county line.

http://www.midlandroads.com/2005%20construction.pdf
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Old September 25th, 2008, 08:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOPWOP View Post
DUFFMAN QUOTE*
X2 - deer retrieval that requires leaving a signed ORV trail or route with an ATV IS NOT allowed on state or federal land.
END QUOTE*

STATEWIDE?
Off-Road or Off-Route operation OUTSIDE of a designated area is PROHIBITED, EXCEPT for licensed hunters to remove deer, bear or elk at speeds of under 5mph or less under Michigan law. So essentially, one could legally leave a designated ORV riding area with his ATV for the sole purpose of retreiving his legally tagged deer, bear or elk at speeds of under 5mph.

Bill
You need to be careful about National Forest System Lands in the LP. Travel off the designated road or trail with any type of vehicle is not allowed. There is NO exception for licensed hunters retreiving legally tagged deer, bear or elk.


Les
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Old September 25th, 2008, 08:57 AM   #19
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You need to be careful about National Forest System Lands in the LP. Travel off the designated road or trail with any type of vehicle is not allowed. There is NO exception for licensed hunters retreiving legally tagged deer, bear or elk.


Les
Off topic question really quick. When we go to the manistee national forest to camp, there are overgrown two tracks in between camp sites. These trails are sometimes 1000-1500' in length. I've always wondered what the legalities of driving on them are because I see the Forest Rangers using them.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
My understanding is that if it's a public right of way they can't do "road closure by neglect". They would have to go through . You might actually be able to sue the county for failure to maintain the road.
So how would you find out if they went through a formal road abandoning process or not ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by District Ranger View Post
You need to be careful about National Forest System Lands in the LP. Travel off the designated road or trail with any type of vehicle is not allowed. There is NO exception for licensed hunters retreiving legally tagged deer, bear or elk.

Les
So, on Forest System Lands in the LP it's not O.K., but on State land it is. Correct ?
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