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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:55 PM   #101
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really? I think it fits great in the REAL WORLD, from hydrogen generators and perpetual motion machines to spirits, demons, and ghosts. I'm not afraid of religion. Unwillingness to discuss what?
Apparently it works only if it first passes the Mike Sova test. If it fits in your bubble, it's golden. If it doesn't you ignore it.

Do me a favor, define extraordinary evidence.

You don't want to engage the religious leaders who made claims and discuss that validity one to another. You made a quick sweep faster than the Dutchman.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:45 AM   #102
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Apparently it works only if it first passes the Mike Sova test. If it fits in your bubble, it's golden. If it doesn't you ignore it.

Do me a favor, define extraordinary evidence.

You don't want to engage the religious leaders who made claims and discuss that validity one to another. You made a quick sweep faster than the Dutchman.
ask Carl Sagan. Maybe you can channel him w/ a Ouji board. but if you can't, this guy explains it quite nicely w/ lots of examples.

http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2...rdinary-c.html

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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:18 AM   #103
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I am asking you to think for yourself Mike, can you do that?

What do you consider extraordinay evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:32 AM   #104
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I am asking you to think for yourself Mike, can you do that?

What do you consider extraordinay evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
for something like that, I would need to witness it myself, or an equally extraordinary "miracle", not just read about an account from those people who started the religion.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:36 AM   #105
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Do you only treat claimed miracles this way?

What if a small army defeated one twice its size? Would you have to be there to believe it happened? Where do you draw the line?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:55 AM   #106
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Do you only treat claimed miracles this way?

What if a small army defeated one twice its size? Would you have to be there to believe it happened? Where do you draw the line?
well your example is less extraordinary than a man rising from the dead, wouldn't you say? The U.S. military was smaller and less trained than the British army, but still pulled out a victory. So, I would require less evidence for that because it has happened before, there is previous evidence of this being possible. Or if you made a claim that you went to the store and bought a gallon of milk, I wouldn't require much evidence, because this is something that there is proof of that as being possible. Maybe I would only need to see a receipt...but that isn't rising from being dead for two days now is it?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:16 AM   #107
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well your example is less extraordinary than a man rising from the dead, wouldn't you say? The U.S. military was smaller and less trained than the British army, but still pulled out a victory. So, I would require less evidence for that because it has happened before, there is previous evidence of this being possible. Or if you made a claim that you went to the store and bought a gallon of milk, I wouldn't require much evidence, because this is something that there is proof of that as being possible. Maybe I would only need to see a receipt...but that isn't rising from being dead for two days now is it?
And what would you say of me, if I said that such a military victory never happened, because I was not there to see it? Would you call me crazy? Would you think me operating outside of reality?

My wife is pregnant and I buy her organic milk so she doesn't have all the hormones (this will be a long story but it is on point, I promise). I was at Meijer the other day and bought a gallon of their organic milk. I bring it home, for her to have some, and she says it was already opened, that the plastic ring thing was already broken, and that the cardboard/plastic seal thing was half lifted up. Naturally we will not drink it in case foul play is somehow involved. I still need milk, so I will go back and return it. At first I planned on just throwing it out and bringing the receipt and asking for a replacement, but they have to accept my testimony that I actually had defective product, and not one that was good that I used up quickly. So then I thought I should bring the gallon of milk there with me, with a glass poured out (which was dumped) and give that with the receipt. But in the latter case, they are still needing to accept my testimony that it was opened before I got home to use it, and didn't just have buyers remorse of some kind. Regardless, the milk is going in the trash, and Meijer will lose $5.85; further, they will have to accept my personal testimony of the situation regardless of whether or not the gallon of milk is present. Here is the point: I could have lied about the whole thing, and there is no way for me to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that my story is true. Meijer has to accept my testimony as the person who was there and experienced what I experienced. This is NO DIFFERENT than any other testimony that has ever been given for any event. In ANY event, there is a decision being made on whether the person testifying is telling the truth or telling a lie. RIGHT?

I agree that me standing at the customer service counter at Meijer about my opened milk is a bit more believable than that of a man rising from the grave. However, we CAN and NEED to evaluate the witness before throwing the testifyable baby out with the bathwater. RIGHT?


.

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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:23 AM   #108
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Jesus Christ of Nazareth, son of Joseph, he made the claims.

He claimed to be the Messiah they were all waiting for that would save the world of its sin. He claimed to be one with God, the only way to heaven.

He performed miracles (raising the dead, bringing sight to the blind, healing illnesses and leoporacy, walked through walls, and far more importantly, came back from the grave himself). It was well known the uproar that he created by challenging the religious dudes of the day who were total hypocrites. The only reason they even payed attention to him is because OF his miracles, otherwise they would not have wanted his life. The mass conversions following his resurrection points to its validity. Do you have a mind to analyze this stuff or do you write it off because you were not there to see it yourself?


What you continue to miss is that I did analyze religion and belief during my formative years and I have come to my own conclusions. I have kept an open mind through my adult life as well, waiting for something new. Sorry, nothing new. It has not changed in my lifetime. Still a leap of faith and stories in a book. That leap I am not willing to make and the book, well, it is just a book. If god, or jesus or the holy ghost comes down and introduces themselves then I will change my mind. Beyond that, it ain't gonna happen.

See, if I disagree with you and your beliefs I must not be analyzing anything. That is what you are saying.

Oh, the bible we know today, what most religious people consider a record, was not written until many years after the facts. Gee, there could not have been a mistake? There could not have been embellishment? The further you go back in history the more you will find superstition and misunderstanding of the world. Legends, stories, bedtime tales, passed down through the generations. Heck, think about the line of 20 people, whisper something into the first persons ear and see how accurate the last person is. Now multiply that over and over. I just don't understand the lack of questions about the book in and of itself.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:27 AM   #109
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What you continue to miss is that I did analyze religion and belief during my formative years and I have come to my own conclusions. I have kept an open mind through my adult life as well, waiting for something new. Sorry, nothing new. It has not changed in my lifetime. Still a leap of faith and stories in a book. That leap I am not willing to make and the book, well, it is just a book. If god, or jesus or the holy ghost comes down and introduces themselves then I will change my mind. Beyond that, it ain't gonna happen.

See, if I disagree with you and your beliefs I must not be analyzing anything. That is what you are saying.

Oh, the bible we know today, what most religious people consider a record, was not written until many years after the facts. Gee, there could not have been a mistake? There could not have been embellishment? The further you go back in history the more you will find superstition and misunderstanding of the world. Legends, stories, bedtime tales, passed down through the generations. Heck, think about the line of 20 people, whisper something into the first persons ear and see how accurate the last person is. Now multiply that over and over. I just don't understand the lack of questions about the book in and of itself.
(I will withhold my comments on the scrutiny used in putting the words of scripture on paper, I can go there later if you want, I wish to stay on track in the mean time).

Please see my above post regarding the credibility of the witness of an event.

So what would a professor say if you told him the history book he was teachign from was "just a book" and it had no bearing on you, and didn't apply to you? What ultimately is the difference one to another??
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:30 AM   #110
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And what would you say of me, if I said that such a military victory never happened, because I was not there to see it? Would you call me crazy? Would you think me operating outside of reality?

My wife is pregnant and I buy her organic milk so she doesn't have all the hormones (this will be a long story but it is on point, I promise). I was at Meijer the other day and bought a gallon of their organic milk. I bring it home, for her to open it, and she says that the plastic ring thing was already broken, and that the cardboard/plastic seal thing was half lifted up. At first I planned on just bringing the receipt and asking for a replacement, but they have to accept my testimony that I actually purchased it. So then I thought I should bring the gallon of milk there with me, with a glass poured out (which was dumped) and give that with the receipt. But in the latter case, they are still needing to accept my testimony that it was opened before I got home to use it. Regardless, the milk is going in the trash, and Meijer will lose $5.85; further, they will have to accept my personal testimony of the situation regardless of whether or not the gallon of milk is present. Here is the point: I could have lied about the whole thing, and there is no way for me to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that my story is true. Meijer has to accept my testimony as the person who was there and experienced what I experienced. This is NO DIFFERENT than any other testimony that has ever been given for any event. In ANY event, there is a decision being made on whether the person testifying is telling the truth or telling a lie. RIGHT?

I agree that me standing at the customer service counter at Meijer about my opened milk is a bit more believable than that of a man rising from the grave. However, we CAN and NEED to evaluate the witness before throwing the testifyable baby out with the bathwater. RIGHT?

Sorry, but comparing your examples with the life and times of jesus is comparing apples to........well........something a whole lot different. They are not even worth discussing as far as I am concerned, but I will a little.

The military example. Historical records were written at that time that still exist today. First hand accounts kept as official records. Physical proof to uphold the records is available not only in collections, but alo at the actual battle sites.

As far as the milk, that is more about store policy and current laws regarding product. And if you do not have the product, they are not required to refund your money. That is a courtesy if they do.


Find me a witness (I know, impossible) or even a first hand account and then you may have an argument I might listen to.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:35 AM   #111
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(I will withhold my comments on the scrutiny used in putting the words of scripture on paper, I can go there later if you want, I wish to stay on track in the mean time).

Please see my above post regarding the credibility of the witness of an event.

So what would a professor say if you told him the history book he was teachign from was "just a book" and it had no bearing on you, and didn't apply to you? What ultimately is the difference one to another??

Probable and improbable come to mind. Resurrection and Indian uprising....big difference.

You are trying to compare a complete leap of faith in something that otherwise would not be believable to something that is at least plausible.

Not all history is recorded in a 100% accuracy. The winners and survivors write history. But there is more collective proof about most everything else that has happened in our history.

That all aside, keep trying to convince people to beleive by telling your bad milk story.

I will never be able to get you to consider anything other than what you beleive, I realize that. Stop trying to get me to consider what you beleive after I have analyze and determined for myself already.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:35 AM   #112
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Sorry, but comparing your examples with the life and times of jesus is comparing apples to........well........something a whole lot different. They are not even worth discussing as far as I am concerned, but I will a little.

As far as the milk, that is more about store policy and current laws regarding product. And if you do not have the product, they are not required to refund your money. That is a courtesy if they do.

Find me a witness (I know, impossible) or even a first hand account and then you may have an argument I might listen to

The military example. Historical records were written at that time that still exist today. First hand accounts kept as official records. Physical proof to uphold the records is available not only in collections, but alo at the actual battle sites.
I understand about store policy, but customer service counters can swing rules based on merit, and the point is that a decision would be made on whether or not I am credible in my story. If some drug addict walked in there with a receipt they found on the ground and went to the back of the store, took a swig, then wanted a cash refund, they would have to deny it if they could tell they had some high as a kite wackjob in front of them.

I got witnesses for you Pete, they wrote down what they saw with their own eyes. If you ever want to read thier testimony, let me know.



Military example: There were eye witnesses to events. There were written records of the events. There are outside souces to verify that the battle happened. There is a site that you can go see today and put the pieces together.

Biblical example: There were eye witnesses to events. There were written records of the events. There are outside souces to verify that the battle happened. There is a site that you can go see today and put the pieces together.


What exactly am I missing? You don't have a full understanding of what the Bible is my friend.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:39 AM   #113
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1. Not all history is recorded in a 100% accuracy. The winners and survivors write history. But there is more collective proof about most everything else that has happened in our history.

2. I will never be able to get you to consider anything other than what you beleive, I realize that. Stop trying to get me to consider what you beleive after I have analyze and determined for myself already.
1. There is? What standards do you judge this by, or do you just bllindly assume that is the case? (Honestly, I want to know)

2. If you are right, I will be wrong. But so far you are wrong. If you don't wish to entertain this discussion, then please click on a different one. I hope you don't bow out. I am attempting to bring REALITY into the discussion.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #114
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Dave:
[sarcasm]
Please stop trying to shove your faith on people. This forum was not intended to discuss religion, and it is obvious that any attempt by you to simply express why you believe what you believe is another example of you trying to convert everyone and shove your religion down their throats.

Thank you from the crew of the Politics, Government, or non-Daveism Chat
[/sarcasm]
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Old August 27th, 2008, 05:00 PM   #115
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1. There is? What standards do you judge this by, or do you just bllindly assume that is the case? (Honestly, I want to know)

2. If you are right, I will be wrong. But so far you are wrong. If you don't wish to entertain this discussion, then please click on a different one. I hope you don't bow out. I am attempting to bring REALITY into the discussion.

I am not sure if I will continue or not.

It is not really getting anywhere. You will continue to believe how you choose to believe and I will continue to believe in my own way, or not believe as the case may be. I do not feel the need to justify my stand as I feel I have nothing to justify it against. My reality is different from your reality. I do not wish to "entertain" a discussion where I would have to against my core feelings by simply staying involved. I will not agree to any part of your premise. I feel you are asking me to compromise and meet you half way so I can see the light. Guess what, I saw the light already, about 30 years ago. That light of my truth had nothing to do with churches and organized religion.


Disclaimer: Dave, the following is not meant for you as I know you are a good person and truly believe in what you say.

If nothing else I can honestly say that I am what I present myself as.

If you claim to be religious and believe in whatever you choose to have faith in, then live it. Don't just talk about it, really, truly live it. Live it in every aspect of your life, including how you treat others here in cyber world.
Claiming to be faithful and then being intolerant (in ways other than religion) of others is simply an insult to those who truly believe.

If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 05:11 PM   #116
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It is not really getting anywhere. You will continue to believe how you choose to believe and I will continue to believe in my own way, or not believe as the case may be. I do not feel the need to justify my stand as I feel I have nothing to justify it against. My reality is different from your reality. I do not wish to "entertain" a discussion where I would have to against my core feelings by simply staying involved. I will not agree to any part of your premise. I feel you are asking me to compromise and meet you half way so I can see the light. Guess what, I saw the light already, about 30 years ago. That light of my truth had nothing to do with churches and organized religion.
It's not getting anywhere because you are avoiding my questions which expose your weak arguments. I am not trying to be an internet or intellectual bully, but if you say something false, I am gonna call that false statement on the carpet. I would expect the same from you to me.

So let me ask you again, what measures or standards of collective proof do you use to say that the history from the Bible is not as good as the history in a text book?

I think you are giving some thought towards matters that you are making conclusions on, but you are not giving much thought. If you were, then you would know that half of what you base your personal philiosophies on are pie in the sky. Good in theory, bad in practice.

I am not even on a mission at present time to somehow convince you that Jesus is the savior of the world. But I am out to convince you that your preconcieved notions about the Bible are wrong. Do with that as you will.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 06:19 PM   #117
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Sorry, but comparing your examples with the life and times of jesus is comparing apples to........well........something a whole lot different. They are not even worth discussing as far as I am concerned, but I will a little.

The military example. Historical records were written at that time that still exist today. First hand accounts kept as official records. Physical proof to uphold the records is available not only in collections, but alo at the actual battle sites.

As far as the milk, that is more about store policy and current laws regarding product. And if you do not have the product, they are not required to refund your money. That is a courtesy if they do.


Find me a witness (I know, impossible) or even a first hand account and then you may have an argument I might listen to.
x1,000,000.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:00 PM   #118
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i've got to hand it to these guys, at least they aren't doing the whole "you don't believe in god because you just want to sin" thing.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:18 PM   #119
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If you claim to be religious and believe in whatever you choose to have faith in, then live it. Don't just talk about it, really, truly live it. Live it in every aspect of your life, including how you treat others here in cyber world.
Claiming to be faithful and then being intolerant (in ways other than religion) of others is simply an insult to those who truly believe.

If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
But unless you have done in depth study how do you know that "the walk" is?

also, be careful what you ask for. Based on my knowledge of Christianity a big part of "the walk" is to try to teach everyone "the truth" about Jesus.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:28 PM   #120
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x1,000,000.
Consider giiving my reply to that post, an answer, since Pete hasn't.
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