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Old August 26th, 2008, 03:48 PM   #1
87'YJ
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Default Absolute TRUTH

I've been hearing alot more about this topic in the last few years, specifically on college campuses. I'm surious as to what the masses of GL4X4 think.

Is there an absolute TRUTH in religion?

We have absolute truths in the natural world (science), in math, in history, and other learned subjects. Can religion have these same absolute truths? OR is religion an subjective truth? Meaning that it is only true in the way that each individual feels for him/herself.

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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:59 PM   #2
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I think you mean "subjective" in your last line.

If absolute truth exists in our world in general, then it would HAVE to apply to everything. So the existance of God would have to be absolutely true or absolutely false.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 02:24 AM   #3
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yeah, absolute truths in math, like how 1=0.

scientific truths are exactly absolute either...
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Old August 27th, 2008, 06:28 AM   #4
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Sure absolute truths exist in religion. There either is a God or there isn't. There either is life after death or there isn't. Heaven and hell either exist or they don't. ETC.

The problem is that we don't have enough absolute knowledge to know what the absolute truth is.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:47 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Sure absolute truths exist in religion. There either is a God or there isn't. There either is life after death or there isn't. Heaven and hell either exist or they don't. ETC.

The problem is that we don't have enough absolute knowledge to know what the absolute truth is.
supposedly, General Lee has scientific justification for his god.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 08:46 AM   #6
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supposedly, General Lee has scientific justification for his god.
Justification or proof?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 09:02 AM   #7
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Hell, I almost met him this morning!

PSA! Watch out for people on bicycles when you are driving!!!

Car almost hit me, and I had to dodge. Endo'd the bike, too.

My leg hurts like hell.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 09:49 AM   #8
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Kerwin is right, I meant subjective!

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Sure absolute truths exist in religion. There either is a God or there isn't. There either is life after death or there isn't. Heaven and hell either exist or they don't. ETC.

Interesting. Are you saying that all paths don't lead to the top of the mountain? Are all religions correct and the choice is just up to us?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 09:53 AM   #9
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The problem is that we don't have enough absolute knowledge to know what the absolute truth is.
Is this even possible?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:01 AM   #10
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Is this even possible?
In many cases no, I don't think it is.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:02 AM   #11
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Religion is a "faith," you either believe or don't believe, up to you. It doesn't need to be proven for someone to have "faith" and follow it.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 87'YJ View Post
Kerwin is right, I meant subjective!




Interesting. Are you saying that all paths don't lead to the top of the mountain? Are all religions correct and the choice is just up to us?
I don't know.

I'm open the idea that there could be multiple paths leading to the top of the mountain, or even multiple mountain tops to which one could accend.

I think most, if not all modern western religions say no, there is only one mountain and only one path up it.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
In many cases no, I don't think it is.
If absolute truth DOES exist, then it is easy to conclude that we have access to it. If it didn't exist, then we could never be sure about anything.

But we have to be REASONABLE in our requirements for satisfaction of truth. We cannot ignore the human factor (ie, humans testify, humans test things). If human testing shows that 2+2=4, we have to realize that there is a possibility (to whatever degree) of error. As such, logic will allow us to make a conclusion on a matter to then call it TRUE. How sure are we that it is true? Absolutely sure, and therefore, it is absolute truth.

So when analyzing anything, and determining what is true, we often times have to make that reasonable conclusion based on the information we have available to us.

It is for this reason that I have come to strong conclusions about matters of faith. When ALL, and I mean ALL the data available is analyzed, picked apart, put under intellectual scrutiny, etc, we then need to make a conclusion, while using logic, to make a decision on what is true and what is false. What does a Judge do when presented with data that is conflicting? He hits it hard, gets all the data available, and eventually lands on a decision that is firm. So instead of just putting his hands up in the air with a confused look on his face, he makes a DECISION, the BEST decision that could be made based on all the information. The outcome of that decision becomes the operating principle. If the verdict is guilty, that person is guilty, and so on.

So what are we to do? The same.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I don't know.

I'm open the idea that there could be multiple paths leading to the top of the mountain, or even multiple mountain tops to which one could accend.

I think most, if not all modern western religions say no, there is only one mountain and only one path up it.
This reminds me of the story about how all these people who are blind go up to an elephant that is supposedly god, and they describe god as they find him. One dude finds the tail and says that god is like a whip. Another finds a leg and said god is like a tree truck, and so on. All of that is supposed to show some crazy concept that we all approach god differently, and we are all the same and should coexist like sova's bumper sticker says.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM: .. ... (taking deep breath). .. NONE OF THEM GOT IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in that analogy, god is the ELEPHANT, he is not a tree or a whip or whatever. They were all WRONG.

So the point is this: We need to make reasonable conclusions on the name of the elephant, is his name Allah, Jesus, am I the elephant, or is there no elephant. This can be done friends, this is not an impossible decision where we need to sit on a fence the rest of our lives.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
This reminds me of the story about how all these people who are blind go up to an elephant that is supposedly god, and they describe god as they find him. One dude finds the tail and says that god is like a whip. Another finds a leg and said god is like a tree truck, and so on. All of that is supposed to show some crazy concept that we all approach god differently, and we are all the same and should coexist like sova's bumper sticker says.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM: .. ... (taking deep breath). .. NONE OF THEM GOT IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in that analogy, god is the ELEPHANT, he is not a tree or a whip or whatever. They were all WRONG.

So the point is this: We need to make reasonable conclusions on the name of the elephant, is his name Allah, Jesus, am I the elephant, or is there no elephant. This can be done friends, this is not an impossible decision where we need to sit on a fence the rest of our lives.
Perception is reality, maybe you see God as an elephant but he is really a heard of elephants to me.

These conversations never go anywhere, maybe you and Sova should just arm wrestle and the winner will be declared the one who is right. Then everyone can stop arguing about something that neither side can prove to the other. Plus it would be more fun to watch.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #16
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Perception is reality, maybe you see God as an elephant but he is really a heard of elephants to me.

These conversations never go anywhere, maybe you and Sova should just arm wrestle and the winner will be declared the one who is right. Then everyone can stop arguing about something that neither side can prove to the other. Plus it would be more fun to watch.
not yet, my hand is still messed up.

p.s. my argument isn't much, just that I haven't seen enough evidence to make me believe a claim.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:02 AM   #17
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1. Perception is reality

2. These conversations never go anywhere

3. maybe you and Sova should just arm wrestle
1. It is? How sure are you?

2. Probably because you deny absolute truth.

3. Count me in. Loser converts. Party at your place?

Last edited by Dave Kerwin; August 27th, 2008 at 11:07 AM.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:02 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
If absolute truth DOES exist, then it is easy to conclude that we have access to it. If it didn't exist, then we could never be sure about anything.

But we have to be REASONABLE in our requirements for satisfaction of truth. We cannot ignore the human factor (ie, humans testify, humans test things). If human testing shows that 2+2=4, we have to realize that there is a possibility (to whatever degree) of error. As such, logic will allow us to make a conclusion on a matter to then call it TRUE. How sure are we that it is true? Absolutely sure, and therefore, it is absolute truth.

So when analyzing anything, and determining what is true, we often times have to make that reasonable conclusion based on the information we have available to us.

It is for this reason that I have come to strong conclusions about matters of faith. When ALL, and I mean ALL the data available is analyzed, picked apart, put under intellectual scrutiny, etc, we then need to make a conclusion, while using logic, to make a decision on what is true and what is false. What does a Judge do when presented with data that is conflicting? He hits it hard, gets all the data available, and eventually lands on a decision that is firm. So instead of just putting his hands up in the air with a confused look on his face, he makes a DECISION, the BEST decision that could be made based on all the information. The outcome of that decision becomes the operating principle. If the verdict is guilty, that person is guilty, and so on.

So what are we to do? The same.
Because humans have defined what "2", "+", "=", and "4" mean, we know the absolute truth of these things, and can say absolutly that 2+2=4.

But many times throughout the history of man humans have taken everything known about a certian subject, analyzed it, and came up with the wrong answer because their knowledge was too incomplete. Likewise, many times people are wrongly found guilty. If you were charged with a murder you didn't commit, but they found enough evidence against you to convince a judge and jury that you were guilty, does this then make you a murder? I think not.

Yes, we do have to take the best evidence we have and make a decision as to what the truth is, but until we have absolute knowledge on a subject I do not think we can say we know the "absolute truth". Until I know everything (which will never happen) I will continue to seek knowledge, and I will use that knowledge to reformulate what I believe to be the "truth".
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:10 AM   #19
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A. Because humans have defined what "2", "+", "=", and "4" mean, we know the absolute truth of these things, and can say absolutly that 2+2=4.

B. But many times throughout the history of man humans have taken everything known about a certian subject, analyzed it, and came up with the wrong answer because their knowledge was too incomplete. Likewise, many times people are wrongly found guilty. If you were charged with a murder you didn't commit, but they found enough evidence against you to convince a judge and jury that you were guilty, does this then make you a murder? I think not.

C. Yes, we do have to take the best evidence we have and make a decision as to what the truth is, but until we have absolute knowledge on a subject I do not think we can say we know the "absolute truth". Until I know everything (which will never happen) I will continue to seek knowledge, and I will use that knowledge to reformulate what I believe to be the "truth".

A. Humans are not perfect.
Humans have defined mathematics
Therefore, mathematics are not perfect.

B. There is the possibility of error. So then call your beliefs progressive, but dont' ride the fence. The longer I have followed Christ, the more and more convinced I have become. As I go, I find MORE evicence, not less.

C. What is the alternative Bruce? Live in a soft subjective reality where my truth is different than yours?
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:20 AM   #20
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Religion as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

We often count cults and "false" religions as RELIGION because by the words very definition, cults and false beliefs can be a religion.

So there has to be "true religion" or at least "true" beliefs. It is up to us to discover the truth for ourselves.
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