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Old June 21st, 2008, 12:46 PM   #61
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The skilled trades I see are some of the brightest people I know.

And yet the wages of these skilled trades have been stagnant for over a decade...almost always tied in with the "non-skilled" workforce since it's s blue collar job.

4 years of trade school in ADDITION to thousands of hours working in a credible shop are required to get a Journeymans card...and yet it was an additional 3-4 years AFTER I earned my card that I felt confident I was a true professional in my field.


I know many here would find it hard to believe that someone who has no college degree has enough skills to justify $30.00+ an hour....and I'm usually LUCKY to find a shop paying $20.00 an hour.

I love NAFTA.

Should have been a fawking lawyer...
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Old June 21st, 2008, 12:53 PM   #62
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And yet the wages of these skilled trades have been stagnant for over a decade...almost always tied in with the "non-skilled" workforce since it's s blue collar job.

4 years of trade school in ADDITION to thousands of hours working in a credible shop are required to get a Journeymans card...and yet it was an additional 3-4 years AFTER I earned my card that I felt confident I was a true professional in my field.


I know many here would find it hard to believe that someone who has no college degree has enough skills to justify $30.00+ an hour....and I'm usually LUCKY to find a shop paying $20.00 an hour.

I love NAFTA.

Should have been a fawking lawyer...
“Ford's gross average hourly earnings -- the money that actually shows up in the pay envelope -- have risen from $22.95 in 1997 to $32.38 in 2006 -- an increase of 41 percent. By comparison, all manufacturing average hourly earnings increased 31 percent” (Szczesny).

Szczesny, Joseph. (2007). UAW-Big Three: The Showdown Begins. Retrieved June 12, 2008, from http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/07/...wn-begins.html

bls.gov shows an increase in wages as well.

Maybe you're working in the wrong places...?
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Old June 21st, 2008, 01:14 PM   #63
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Maybe you're working in the wrong places...?
The Big three are the only places that pay skilled trades above the $30.00 an hour mark....I've been on the Automotive roller coaster....I don't like it...nothing to keep you from flying off the train at every other turn..

that and the fact that they as a whole have been the single biggest contributors to the stagnant wages of my craft in this country by "lumping" us in with the non-skilled blue collars. 2 tier pay systems usually affect "hourly" employees.:miff:
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Old June 21st, 2008, 01:21 PM   #64
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The Big three are the only places that pay skilled trades above the $30.00 an hour mark....I've been on the Automotive roller coaster....I don't like it...nothing to keep you from flying off the train at every other turn..

that and the fact that they as a whole have been the single biggest contributors to the stagnant wages of my craft in this country by "lumping" us in with the non-skilled blue collars. 2 tier pay systems usually affect "hourly" employees.:miff:
wat???? i know welders in MI that make over 30 an hour, and they do not work for automakers.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 01:33 PM   #65
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wat???? i know welders in MI that make over 30 an hour, and they do not work for automakers.
Really??? wow...the only welders I know of that make that kind of coin are underwater welders and guys that do stuff that will be x-rayed because they are that critical. Very few of those jobs out there.

Please elaborate.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 01:35 PM   #66
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Really??? wow...the only welders I know of that make that kind of coin are underwater welders and guys that do stuff that will be x-rayed because they are that critical. Very few of those jobs out there.

Please elaborate.
if your weld cant pass an xray test then you not a very good welder. i am talking steamfitters, boilermakers, pipeliners etc... p.s. underwater welders make over 100 an hour for the most part. if you own your own truck and welder there are places that pay upwards of 70 an hour in MI for pipeline welding, which is what i am going to school for.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 01:46 PM   #67
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if your weld cant pass an xray test then you not a very good welder. i am talking steamfitters, boilermakers, pipeliners etc... p.s. underwater welders make over 100 an hour for the most part. if you own your own truck and welder there are places that pay upwards of 70 an hour in MI for pipeline welding, which is what i am going to school for.
But there is a difference when the weld WILL be x-rayed to be good..you know what I mean..

Good luck in your field...I enjoy the art of welding and have alot of respect for a diverse/high quality welder...they are a asset to my field.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 02:33 PM   #68
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if your weld cant pass an xray test then you not a very good welder. i am talking steamfitters, boilermakers, pipeliners etc... p.s. underwater welders make over 100 an hour for the most part. if you own your own truck and welder there are places that pay upwards of 70 an hour in MI for pipeline welding, which is what i am going to school for.
That sounds more like contract work than "hourly" work. Many people make high hourly rates doing those types of things, but not all of their time is "billable". The people who make $100 a hour don't usually work a 40 hour work week on a consistent basis.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 02:37 PM   #69
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That sounds more like contract work than "hourly" work. Many people make high hourly rates doing those types of things, but not all of their time is "billable". The people who make $100 a hour don't usually work a 40 hour work week on a consistent basis.
yeah, the places down on the gulf that use U.W. welders only allow them so many hours a week dive time. but even a 30 hour week at those rates pays very well. trust me dude, i have been researching this stuff for some time.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 04:13 PM   #70
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Remember what your Momma said about "before you consider the comment, consider the source." The National Labor Committee is notorious for writing inflammatory headlines on sweatshop/child labor (i.e. Non-union) "abuses."

Hmmmm only 15% of their funding comes from the UAW, but wait, what about the other organized labor sponsors; that would be the rest of it. Kinda like Obama opting out of public campaign financing because it's a broken system but not because he can now spend 4x the money without having to disclose the campaign donors who are paying the bills. Yeah right.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 08:43 PM   #71
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Jeems,
The Aveo is made is South Korea by GM-DAT ( Daewoo ) which GM owns. GM needed a sub-compact, entry-level vehicle to fill a niche they didn't have domestically-made product in.

It was much cheaper (and quicker) to certify the Aveo than to design, test and retool a plant to produce something here. Again, the profits stay and support GM. It may be support for the "corporation", and not for the "worker", however, GM supports a lot more people in Michigan than Toyota does by producing a truck down in Texas.
Its possible that Im just stupid, but using the Tundra/Aveo example I wonder if you can break down the benefits a little bit more for me? Aside from the margin collected by the parent company selling to the dealer, and the dealer selling to the consumer (Aveo) - How is it possible in a pure dollar sense for it to be more beneficial to the American worker (I really don't like that term) or the American economy as a whole to source an almost entirely foreign product, tickle a little off the top and call it a Chevy rather than (If this is really true - meaning engineering and development and not only snap parts together and bolt them to the chassis in Cali is part of the 70% US content) a fully 70% US content vehicle, all the parts sourced, designed, assembled, taxes paid (ALL the taxes paid from the corp selling the vehicle to the various payroll taxes collected) - on the Tundra ....

Or since you brought it up --- GM the corporation being able to recognize the value of designing, developing, tooling and assembling a subcompact that will fill a niche (That has ALWAYS been there mind you! So don't try and tell me theres no market for subcompacts - Naturally theres not as hyooge of a profit margin as the trucks/SUVs of 5-10 years ago) that foreign makers have OBVIOUSLY seen a value in catering to.

And as for corporate profits being of greater value than sourcing parts and assembling a vehicle domestically - the "big 3" haven't exactly been spending their SUV profit r&d cash wisely in the past several years. Unless you consider maximizing profits for the short term (and relatively nil towards the future in terms of alternative fuels, efficient designs - as we see them today) a good business plan? Like I said, there has ALWAYS been a market for soulless cookie cutter sedans such as the one that just surpassed the F150 as the best selling vehicle in the US - The Honda Civic (which in all honesty is also the best VALUE for the consumer today)- GM/Ford/Cerberus for some reason were unable to see it.

And for what it's worth, in all honesty, maintaining the big3 retirees standard of living really isn't high on my list of priorities. I could give a fukc if they were made to buy a smaller boat or keep a car past red carpet lease age...

Having said this, I'm still not able to stomach driving a car with an emblem on the steering wheel that =/= blue oval, a bow tie (or the like), or a goat's head. It would make me feel dirty. However, my daily driver being an '83, Im still Bill Ford's worst nightmare.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 08:47 PM   #72
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Remember what your Momma said about "before you consider the comment, consider the source." The National Labor Committee is notorious for writing inflammatory headlines on sweatshop/child labor (i.e. Non-union) "abuses."

Hmmmm only 15% of their funding comes from the UAW, but wait, what about the other organized labor sponsors; that would be the rest of it. Kinda like Obama opting out of public campaign financing because it's a broken system but not because he can now spend 4x the money without having to disclose the campaign donors who are paying the bills. Yeah right.
x2

This was exactly what I was thinking while reading the article in the first place
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Old June 21st, 2008, 09:59 PM   #73
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I don't really want to read all this.


But Pretty much all auto manufacturers use about the same suppliers, so until they start saying which suppliers, its just bs or they all do it..
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Old June 21st, 2008, 10:02 PM   #74
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When does Sam's club enter the fold? Anyhoo, I'm a strong believer that if you live in Michigan and are concerned with our local economy, you should buy from an American manufacturer.

I also know that that isn't always an option for people, especially now that fuel prices are becoming (relatively) so high. With Michigan's economy not doing the greatest, almost 9% unemployment, it is difficult to fault someone buying a $10k new Kia, shopping at walmart, etc.

We're in a big mess in Michigan.


Last I checked the US encompassed more then just Michigan. Its this selfish attitude that is exemplified IMO by they UAW's and big three me me me attitude.

Claiming that the Aveo being made in Korea is GM's way of helping the company is the biggest load Ive heard.

If they and other companies would have stopped spitting out gas guzzling pigs when the rest of the world seen the oil crunch coming for years they would not be in the sinking boat their in. They are reaping what they sewed with lots full of unsold SUV and cars that barely see 30mpg going down hill with a tail wind.

The economy may not be touching you economically yet but it will. When it does I'm sure you will run out and buy and H2 or escalade to make that 40 mile commute to find work and cry like hell when you cant pass a gas station.
All the while calling yourself the good Michigander all the way to bankruptcy court..
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Old June 21st, 2008, 10:48 PM   #75
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Last I checked the US encompassed more then just Michigan. Its this selfish attitude that is exemplified IMO by they UAW's and big three me me me attitude.

Claiming that the Aveo being made in Korea is GM's way of helping the company is the biggest load Ive heard.

If they and other companies would have stopped spitting out gas guzzling pigs when the rest of the world seen the oil crunch coming for years they would not be in the sinking boat their in. They are reaping what they sewed with lots full of unsold SUV and cars that barely see 30mpg going down hill with a tail wind.

The economy may not be touching you economically yet but it will. When it does I'm sure you will run out and buy and H2 or escalade to make that 40 mile commute to find work and cry like hell when you cant pass a gas station.
All the while calling yourself the good Michigander all the way to bankruptcy court..
Your ignorance astounds me. The auto manufacturers made the cars that the consumer wanted to buy. Up until now, that has been high powered, low fuel economy vehicles.

You really have no idea how business works, do you?

You, along with many other people find it much easier to hate the domestic auto manufacturers and parrot things they heard other people say, such as this tripe from above:
Quote:
If they and other companies would have stopped spitting out gas guzzling pigs when the rest of the world seen the oil crunch coming for years they would not be in the sinking boat their in. They are reaping what they sewed with lots full of unsold SUV and cars that barely see 30mpg going down hill with a tail wind.
You need to read a book and stop listening to the other dipshits in the breakroom at work.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 10:50 PM   #76
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Its possible that Im just stupid, but using the Tundra/Aveo example I wonder if you can break down the benefits a little bit more for me? Aside from the margin collected by the parent company selling to the dealer, and the dealer selling to the consumer (Aveo) - How is it possible in a pure dollar sense for it to be more beneficial to the American worker (I really don't like that term) or the American economy as a whole to source an almost entirely foreign product, tickle a little off the top and call it a Chevy rather than (If this is really true - meaning engineering and development and not only snap parts together and bolt them to the chassis in Cali is part of the 70% US content) a fully 70% US content vehicle, all the parts sourced, designed, assembled, taxes paid (ALL the taxes paid from the corp selling the vehicle to the various payroll taxes collected) - on the Tundra ....

Or since you brought it up --- GM the corporation being able to recognize the value of designing, developing, tooling and assembling a subcompact that will fill a niche (That has ALWAYS been there mind you! So don't try and tell me theres no market for subcompacts - Naturally theres not as hyooge of a profit margin as the trucks/SUVs of 5-10 years ago) that foreign makers have OBVIOUSLY seen a value in catering to.

And as for corporate profits being of greater value than sourcing parts and assembling a vehicle domestically - the "big 3" haven't exactly been spending their SUV profit r&d cash wisely in the past several years. Unless you consider maximizing profits for the short term (and relatively nil towards the future in terms of alternative fuels, efficient designs - as we see them today) a good business plan? Like I said, there has ALWAYS been a market for soulless cookie cutter sedans such as the one that just surpassed the F150 as the best selling vehicle in the US - The Honda Civic (which in all honesty is also the best VALUE for the consumer today)- GM/Ford/Cerberus for some reason were unable to see it.

And for what it's worth, in all honesty, maintaining the big3 retirees standard of living really isn't high on my list of priorities. I could give a fukc if they were made to buy a smaller boat or keep a car past red carpet lease age...

Having said this, I'm still not able to stomach driving a car with an emblem on the steering wheel that =/= blue oval, a bow tie (or the like), or a goat's head. It would make me feel dirty. However, my daily driver being an '83, Im still Bill Ford's worst nightmare.
You guys seem to miss it every time I write "michigan's economy". :bangsheadsagainstwall:
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Old June 21st, 2008, 11:04 PM   #77
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Not sure how true this story is (i hope it's not) I make my living selling Toyota's and I would much rather own a PRIUS than A N Y domestic p.o.s.
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Old June 21st, 2008, 11:11 PM   #78
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Not sure how true this story is (i hope it's not) I make my living selling Toyota's and I would much rather own a PRIUS than A N Y domestic p.o.s.
Fantastic.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 03:54 AM   #79
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i've been paged to inject some sense into this conversation. However I see that half of you are complete fucking retards and the other half have a clue.

Those complete fucking retards will never get it, probably don't vote, probably don't make enough to buy a new car anyway, wouldn't understand an Economic principal or the effect its having on their very own paycheck as we speak.

But hey, do whatever floats your boat.

Sheep.....
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 04:00 AM   #80
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Please guys, look up "Trickle Down Economics"

Very simple.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Big guy makes money, buys lots of stuff from middle level guys, middle level guys buy lots of stuff from lower level guys......It's like a pyramid, the guy at the top makes no money (GM) The guy at the bottom (me, you, coffee shop owner, auto supplier, diner, jeep shop, ironman offroad, jcr, tims welding supply, etc) makes no money.

The big guy is HEADQUARTERED LOCALLY. SUPPORT HIM YOU FUCKING morons.
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