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Old April 11th, 2008, 04:41 PM   #81
Hunter9
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So what you are saying is I am in charge of my own destiny?? I can be successful if I work at it?
Schweeb should spend more time being concerned with what he is doing to correct his own situation and not point fingers at how he was wronged. Shit happens.
Corporations are here to make money, imagine that. When their competitors can make and sell a very competitive product for 10, 20, 30% less they have a choice. Correct their situation any way possible or close up shop. Simple business 101.
If your competition can do the job cheaper (manufacturing, construction, Tech, Service, etc) than you can, you can guarantee that they have figured out how to do it profitably. They have better technology, better more efficient help, better systems, etc. This may or may not mean cheaper labor. So if you cannot beat them, move to another field or work cheaper, that is reality.
If all the auto manufacturing was still in the US, from raw materials to assembly a new malibu would cost over $100k while the price of a camry would remain the same.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 04:52 PM   #82
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Cube = Heavyset Asian Male who is able to lick his own boobs
Ok, back to topic.
Ok, I work with cube and the thought of him licking his own boobs just made me vomit a little in my mouth.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 07:28 PM   #83
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I'm torn on outsourcing.

I think that as a nation, we need to be looking out for number one a hell of a lot more than we are. I'm tired of us quietly accepting closed markets or unfair trade regulations in Japan and Korea for instance, but freely accepting everything they make - often modifying legislation to make it easier for them.

But I also understand that if your skill level and ability to contribute is no more than a typical Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, etc... peasant, you should fully expect to lose your job to said peasant. It's a world economy, folks.

In 100 years history will show that the era of uneducated, unskilled labor making $75-100K (or more) a year (in 2008 $) was a 50-year temporary aberration brought on by the end of WW2, pent-up demand, and the lack of viable foreign competition as a result of the war. Much like the days of the wild west, it will pass into history as an interesting, but ultimately unsustainable period. It's already fading, and I suspect it will collapse before my working life is done (and I'm 48).

Here's a test: if your current income is more dependent on where you work versus what you do, start educating yourself and develop options. If an 18 year-old kid can learn your job in a few days, start building marketable skills.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 08:51 PM   #84
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I'm torn on outsourcing.

I think that as a nation, we need to be looking out for number one a hell of a lot more than we are. I'm tired of us quietly accepting closed markets or unfair trade regulations in Japan and Korea for instance, but freely accepting everything they make - often modifying legislation to make it easier for them.

But I also understand that if your skill level and ability to contribute is no more than a typical Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, etc... peasant, you should fully expect to lose your job to said peasant. It's a world economy, folks.

In 100 years history will show that the era of uneducated, unskilled labor making $75-100K (or more) a year (in 2008 $) was a 50-year temporary aberration brought on by the end of WW2, pent-up demand, and the lack of viable foreign competition as a result of the war. Much like the days of the wild west, it will pass into history as an interesting, but ultimately unsustainable period. It's already fading, and I suspect it will collapse before my working life is done (and I'm 48).

Here's a test: if your current income is more dependent on where you work versus what you do, start educating yourself and develop options. If an 18 year-old kid can learn your job in a few days, start building marketable skills.
Pretty much sums up my feelings.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 11:26 PM   #85
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I'm not in any sort of trouble. I probably make more than most (assuredly not all) of you, and will continue to do so for a long time yet. My career is nowhere near done, but my current position is going away because Chrysler is replacing EDS with CSC. I will likely be extended an offer from CSC, which I will also likely refuse in favor of a more skilled and highly paying position. I'm looking to hop accounts within EDS.

My job has not been taken over by offshore personnel, the managed services contract we were previously awarded has been given to another firm, due to what appears to be some very odd RFQ/bidding tactics by our customer. This is part of the distinction I tried to make earlier, outsourcing is NOT offshoring, and outsourcing within the country can be very good, and a large cost saving measure for a company whose mission statement doesn't directly involve IT.

However, if anyone has any contacts within any big IT shops, specifically in the storage and backup realms, or doing Linux/UNIX... I'm definitely open to help via word of mouth. Ideal job characteristics - ~100k pay, flexible hours and/or work from home occasionally.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 11:29 PM   #86
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Schweeb should spend more time being concerned with what he is doing to correct his own situation and not point fingers at how he was wronged. Shit happens.
Thanks assclown, I didn't point any fingers at any one. Hell, I only made 1 post in this thread.... I may be part of the "not my fault" generation, but I don't perpetuate that bullshit.
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Old April 11th, 2008, 11:46 PM   #87
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my experiences with IT offshoring:

- they are only good with easy, repeatable procedures
- anything that varies in the slightest from these procedures throws them for a loop
- veering off the course of these procedures usually leads to disaster, and they don't know how to step back and ask knowledgeable parties. They will either walk away from their desks for hours, and not tell anyone... or just break things further
- the aforementioned actions have actually caused more work for the onshore teams, since they're having to clean up the mess
- the offshore teams will never, ever fess up to having made a mistake, or give you a clue as to what they may have tried to cause said disaster


- offshoring doesn't necessarily always make sense... after the cost of building facilities, maintaining wide area network connectivity, hiring and training personnel, and cleaning up after their mistakes... you're pretty much where you started in the first place
- the dropping value of the dollar vs. the raising value of the rupee is rapidly cutting the cost-savings afforded by these offshore units

I'm not totally against all offshoring, but my personal experiences have been loaded with miscommunications and seeing mistakes covered up and everyone having to scramble to pick up the slack.

India and other offshoring targets aren't really a 1 to 1 replacement for really anyone, but for cheap, repeatable labor, where they can't easily screw things up, it's a decent alternative. When they do become a 1 to 1 replacement, they will stop being anywhere near as cost efficient. There's a good reason we don't offshore to europe.
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Old April 14th, 2008, 02:43 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by schweeb View Post
my experiences with IT offshoring:

- they are only good with easy, repeatable procedures
- anything that varies in the slightest from these procedures throws them for a loop
- veering off the course of these procedures usually leads to disaster, and they don't know how to step back and ask knowledgeable parties. They will either walk away from their desks for hours, and not tell anyone... or just break things further
- the aforementioned actions have actually caused more work for the onshore teams, since they're having to clean up the mess
- the offshore teams will never, ever fess up to having made a mistake, or give you a clue as to what they may have tried to cause said disaster


- offshoring doesn't necessarily always make sense... after the cost of building facilities, maintaining wide area network connectivity, hiring and training personnel, and cleaning up after their mistakes... you're pretty much where you started in the first place
- the dropping value of the dollar vs. the raising value of the rupee is rapidly cutting the cost-savings afforded by these offshore units

I'm not totally against all offshoring, but my personal experiences have been loaded with miscommunications and seeing mistakes covered up and everyone having to scramble to pick up the slack.

India and other offshoring targets aren't really a 1 to 1 replacement for really anyone, but for cheap, repeatable labor, where they can't easily screw things up, it's a decent alternative. When they do become a 1 to 1 replacement, they will stop being anywhere near as cost efficient. There's a good reason we don't offshore to europe.
Good pont Schweeb, and to add to that, the U.S. built all of the aforementioned technology infrastructures from scratch, so we know how to handle atypical issues because we understand the theory of the mechanisms. When you build it from the ground up you are more likely to know the interdependencies of the system and diagnose more quickly.

Although I agree wtih what you said about repeatable tasks, in my very large corporation we have many people here that used to hold those jobs in India, but they were smart. Very smart. So much so that they were recruited to take it to the next level. They are now here learning the nuts and bolts of the systems and are working with their counterparts in India, so their knowledge base is rapidly growing.

One interesting side note: a large group of them showed up at our facility after flying in from India. I had just finished having workstations reconfigged from 8' x 8' to the current 6' x 6'. Nearly ALL of the American workers complained about how unreasonable it was for them to be forced to work in such a small cubicle, and I was walking around apologizing for the inconvenience, but that it was beyond my control. Later that day I walked by a small conference room, not more than (guessing) 10' x 12' and found all of the people from India crowded around the small conference table, elbow to elbow, all banging away on their laptops, working their butts off, and not complaining one bit. In fact, they were excited for the ooportunity and complimented me on my beautiful facility...... This is typical. Americans, more and more, complain and blame, and in the meantime the competition is blowing them out of the water. Every time I call a Customer Support person that is clearly in India I get: good manners, pleasant service, a genuine concern for my satisfaction and their service, often times a follow up letter asking me to rate their performance, and more. Try to get THAT from Shaniqua Washington at the "customer service" desk at Comcast..... Not a chance pal. Big ass. Big mouth. Big complainer. Bad manners.
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Old April 14th, 2008, 03:22 PM   #89
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Every time I call a Customer Support person that is clearly in India I get: good manners, pleasant service, a genuine concern for my satisfaction and their service, often times a follow up letter asking me to rate their performance, and more.
o.O I can state that my experiences, both professional, and private, are nowhere near equivalent to yours. Hell, even the stateside indian/paki (I confess to not really being able to tell much of a difference from these German/American ears) CSR's that GMAC hired offer virtually none of the above.

Since GM sold off controlling shares in GMAC, my mortgage servicing went down hill FAST. They routinely screwed up the method with which I applied extra principal - 4x in a 6 month period they would apply the entire current month payment + extra principal as extra principal on the prior month, then 4 days later report the current month delinquent.

Of course, the BS always happened/noticed me on a Friday, after my commute home. The CSR's were always reading from a script, seemingly didn't know how to operate their own system, didn't have the authority to fix their mistakes, and/or insisted I was mistaken, even when verbally describing the cancelled check, with the dates, and memo line clearly depicted thanks to my bank's online access to their imaging system...

I finally gave up, and signed up for online-bill pay.
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Old April 14th, 2008, 04:51 PM   #90
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Although I agree wtih what you said about repeatable tasks, in my very large corporation we have many people here that used to hold those jobs in India, but they were smart. Very smart. So much so that they were recruited to take it to the next level. They are now here learning the nuts and bolts of the systems and are working with their counterparts in India, so their knowledge base is rapidly growing.
Which increases their skillset, but also increases the amount of money which they will be able to (rightfully) demand. There's going to be a point at which their increased monetary requirements, coupled with inconveniences of having all of your staff offshore, and speaking unintelligible English, makes having staff in America seem a lot more attractive again. All we've been doing this whole time is bumping up the quality of life, and the cost of living in India.

This isn't a "simple" system, there are many complexities involved, and the honeymoon isn't going to last forever for these services companies that offshore. Don't be surprised when new offshoring business becomes nonexistant or very slow, as the cost-benefit ratio becomes worse.
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Old April 15th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #91
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Which increases their skillset, but also increases the amount of money which they will be able to (rightfully) demand. There's going to be a point at which their increased monetary requirements, coupled with inconveniences of having all of your staff offshore, and speaking unintelligible English, makes having staff in America seem a lot more attractive again. All we've been doing this whole time is bumping up the quality of life, and the cost of living in India.

This isn't a "simple" system, there are many complexities involved, and the honeymoon isn't going to last forever for these services companies that offshore. Don't be surprised when new offshoring business becomes nonexistant or very slow, as the cost-benefit ratio becomes worse.
Except that large multinational corporations like Haliburton are putting a whole new twist on it.... Move the headquarters overseas, but remain a U.S. corporation. Haliburton, Cheney and the gang are already packed and ready to go to Dubai where they will not have to pay taxes, but will still get no-bid governement contracts and all the protection of a U.S. based corporation.

I hear all this squawking about offshoring, but what about that? I hear no complaints form any one, and most defend it. If they move their headquarters overseas then they shouldn't even be able to compete for the contracts. Make all U.S. contracts go to U.S. based corporations with x% of their operations and overhead IN THE U.S.! Now there's a way to bring jobs back home. Move the trough back where it belongs.
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