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Illegal wheeling video in the UP

18K views 166 replies 54 participants last post by  USMC 0369 
#1 ·
Just got word that the DNR has stumbled into a U-Tube video of some illegal wheeling in the UP. It's on the agenda for the next ORV Advisory Board meeting. At this time we don't have any idea what they plan on doing with it.
We're trying to locate it. Has anyone seen anything like this? Just want to be prepared if/when the DNR Chief starts to berate us. Any help in locating it would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Jim-kb8ymf
 
#43 ·
If the DNR goes after all 4-wheelers because of what is in these videos, maybe you need to ask them whether they pulled the Sierra Club in for a berating the last time some environmentalists thought it was a good idea to torch Hummer dealerships and burn down new homes under construction.
 
#44 ·
Hi guys, I am the owner of the Tahoe in some of the videos in question. I just want to stand up for myself and let you get the actual story before you jump to conclusions as so many of you already have.

First off here is a little background on myself I'm an MTU student majoring in Forestry so I know a thing or two about forests, and land closures and soil erosion and dealing with the DNR possible because I worked for them. I have been offroading since I can remember. As for my "inexperience" that many of you speak of, well I probably off-road more than a lot of you. I do NOT wheel when it is illegal. If its private or closed well I don’t go, because I know that one screw up can ruin it for many, seen it happen a few times, and had to report such activities myself when working with the DNR as well as hand plant trees in areas that were torn up from OHV’s.
 
#45 ·
That trail "boy scout" was open when we ran it, just as the MTU 4x4 club has many of times and if I remember right they ran it the week before we did. The trail was closed by the timber company after we ran the trail for logging and we haven’t ran it since because it is closed. Just because the date on the video is from October or possible November sometime, well I'm a college student majoring in Forestry so video editing isn’t my strong suit and not a real priority, heck I have video from last year not edited and uploaded yet. As for me deleting them I didn’t want to spark more controversy so for the ease of it they have been removed, but if anyone really wants to watch them I would be happy to host them somewhere else and allow access on a limited basis.

If you need my license plate number its public record and if it’s that big of a deal I will PM or email it to you. I’m reading this thread now so if you have any other questions or comments feel free to direct them my way, as what I did was legal at the time and I did nothing wrong. If in two weeks the I-75 speed limit changed from 70 to 55 then is going 70 today illegal??? No… Thanks, Ryan
 
#47 ·
Don't go there trying to say what you did last October was legal. For several years, our "state law" has been that if you spin your tires in an erosive manner, it is illegal. The law was in effect a year ago, last October and still is currently. We have people who now have to go to a meeting and be on the defensive becuase you posted a stupid video. Putting a video of a stock truck splashing through a stream doesn't give much credit to a guy who claims to know the laws and have worked for the DNR.

I give you no credit for trying to strike back.

Admit you were wrong, both here and to the DNR.
 
#49 ·
I know spinning tires is illegal trust me I had to fix those mistakes. But the MTU 4 wheeler clubs spun their tires worse on the same trail, I have pictures I can prove of it not that I would do that to the club but I was probably one of the easiest drivers to traverse that trail. So I did the same thing they did only I posted a video now somehow I am getting blamed for many wheeling screw ups, not fair or just. Also the reason people are in a tizzy about the video is supposedly the trail was CLOSED, which in fact it was not closed until after we ran it, so we were legal in regards to the trail closing. We spun our tires I admit that but in mud it’s pretty hard to not spin legal or illegal. I bet you have spun your tires before???

Notice I said wheeling longer than a lot of you, NOT ALL. I know there are many of you who have wheeled longer, and have lots of experience and I commend that. Some of you I'm sure wheel less often than I, I put 70k miles on a truck this summer for the DNR and for 45k of it we never touched pavement. Not saying that makes you any less knowledgeable or me more, but saying I am dumb and inexperienced was juvenile of those individuals. Somebody was touching the roof of the vehicles, he was not the driver of either vehicle and we told him to stop but he continued and I can’t force him to do anything.
 
#50 ·
Wow, i too am a forester from Michigan Tech. i am on ckupq's acount but i am gehtowheeler so dont hold him responsible. Aren't one of you two assholes president of the wildlife society? If so you should be even more ashamed of your actions, and as you SHOULD know rivers are deemed as wetlands and are part of the fedral law. So if you and the four wheeler club want to destroy a federaly perseverd land go ahead, but dont take the rest of the sport with you!!!
 
#52 ·
can someone please explain what laws are being broken? i'm fairly new to the sport and do not know the laws, from my undertstanding i know you cannot spin your tires or cause harm in an erosive manner but what about crossing streams and marshes and what not? is this illegal and if so what is the fine line of what you can and cannot cross?
 
#53 ·
Rule #1 is: 'If you can't drive it in 2WD', You can't do it. The exception is if the difficulty is a result of a weather related condition, (snow) you 'may' be able to go play there. The 'may' part is meant to really mean, it must be passable in the summer time by rule #1 That's the law that was passed in 1991. PA 451. Wetlands, marshes, bogs, lakes, and rivers, and other natural ecosystems are all offlimits.
The only safe place to play in on orange marked trails (ORV Route's marked throughout the state) or St. Helen scramble area, Mounds, Silver Lake.
There are some finer points like not driving in an errosive manner but that's the quick answer.
jim-kb8ymf
 
#54 ·
It is in no way a federal wetland as it is NOT a river, or stream. It is a man made ditch that was created many years ago by the paper company to drain a swamp. Then it was opened as a trail to access the old boy scout cabin that is open to camping on the redridge pond before the redridge dam was removed and the pond reduced to a trickleing stream. Thats why we ran it, to get to the cabin to hang out and enjoy the scenery.
 
#56 ·
first off way to contradict your self the definition of wetland is anything that has water in it for more than 6 months out of the year so next time u decide to justify something u did read first i know its hard for u but the point is wether its right or wrong the dnr and orv council have the final say and u tell me what they think it is cause they wouldn't be pissed if it wasn't a stream
 
#55 · (Edited)
WOW!
You folks have been BUSY!
I wish I had time to respond to all of the comments made here that I'd like to!
Unfortunately, I'd be here a week.

Yes it's illegal to cross a stream, wetland, bog, marsh, or quagmire in Michigan.
See "O" in the link below:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(45fd...=mcl-324-81133&queryid=12968636&highlight=orv

I hope ALL of you Forestry students finish school and INFILTRATE the DNR and FS! We NEED you where you can make DECISIONS about which trails remain open!
I think the video show currently illegal wheeling that ALSO demonstrates the deficiency of the current ORV System to supply this form of recreation.

There are a LOT of wheelers who would like to drive erosively -- and there SHOULD be a place for them to do so. Why do we like it? I don't know. Just the other day I drove past a nice house on a country, dirt road. There were two kids riding their bikes. They had the whole yard, the driveway, the road, and a big field next to the house to ride in. Where were they riding??? Back and forth through the ONLY mud puddle on the entire stretch of road. I guess it's just in our souls.

It'll be interesting to hear what Steve has to say about it.
 
#58 · (Edited)
In this particular circumstance, you do not need an ORV sticker for these videos, legal or not. A SOS (secretary of state) licensed vehicle is not required to have an ORV stickers on state or forest roads. Only in the scramble areas. Why? because they are only supposed to be driving on roads that are traversable by a conventional 2 wheel drive vehicle.

Chevytahoe5674, you are not being blamed for everything that everyone in your local area has done.

You are being blamed for naively posting a video which may have caused the ire of the DNR.

You seem to be missing the point that the DNR "has placed an illegal video on the agenda of the ORV advisory board meeting". Those of us that are trying to support this sport and work with the DNR now will have to face this issue on your behalf. "WE" are the ones who the DNR views as "your representative".

Whether GLFWDA knows you, likes you, hates you, doesn't know you, we are being called on the carpet for something that you posted. You seem to have no understanding that someone else is going to bear the brunt of your video. Now, instead of working on proactive things with the DNR, the people that attend the meeting will be doing damage control.

You can not say "the MTU 4 wheelers did it" and consider that an excuse. The video in question is of you. Ever heard the saying "if someone else jumps off the bridge, will you?"?
 
#59 · (Edited)
i never said because they do it that it is somehow right. They posted videos to in fact i have all of them. But in the thread the DNR is concerned with the cedar river video and not mine, therefor my videos are nto on the agenda so you wont have to defend my video. If what i did was illegal and i was in question i would come to the meeting if i could make it.

Edit, you yeah this trail is technically on CFR private land. So my question is does the no spin tires law still apply?
 
#64 ·
Edit, you yeah this trail is technically on CFR private land. So my question is does the no spin tires law still apply?

That is a fair question that has been debated more than once and I think you can find interpretations both ways. Part of the answer is whether the area in question is in fact a "wetland". If it is, you can not destroy wetlands even on your own property.

Second, and I'm not trying to pick on you here but trying to help answer your question: If it is private property, and it is not yours, and you are not with a property owner, you must have written permission to be there.

So, as an officer could see it, you could be ticketed for operating in an erosive manner, destroying wetlands and trespassing.

As Trail Fanatic said above, most guys enjoy this stuff. But it's not legal. Yes, it used to be, now it's not. Our society and law enforcement is turning more and more towards zero tolerance. Used to be that a cop would drive you home if he stopped you for drunk driving. Now, you go to jail and it costs you thousands of dollars.

The people here who are discussing this are not trying to be jerks or making fun of you. Rather, trying to deal with a situation that continues to perpetuate and is destroying this sport. You guys go out for a few laughs, have a good time and want to show others what great fun you had. In the mean time, people who do this sport as one of their main hobbies continue to have access to fewer and fewer locations.

It is very frustrating.

95geo makes a great point. I know it's a long drive. But if there was any way you could attend the ORV meeting next week in Lansing, especially with some humility, it would be a good thing.

Our current DNR is very unwilling to work with us to reopen anything. If you are the next generation, maybe an open mind would help us all "share" the woods.

I know you said you think you wheel more than most. You are going to college so I suspect you are not a bumbling idiot. Think these thoughts: You are new to this site. You don't know anyone here. You have been driving somewhere between 4 and 7 years. You are wheeling a stock (mostly) truck and consider your wheeling in DNR pickups as a lot of your logged time. In the scope of statistics, you are somewhere in the bottom 5-20 percent (age wise) of the people on this board. You are pretty much talking about wheeling on county or forest roads where 4 wheel drive is needed to cross a mud puddle. Why do I say this? Because in the range of 4 wheeling, that is the limitation of stock vehicles.

Many of us have traveled out of state all over the country, multiple times per year "for years" doing the same type of trail riding in addition to ORV parks, on the approved hard core trails around the country and up in the Canadian bush. We are a group comprised of every type of vehicle from stock to heavily modified to comp buggies. There are people here who eat and sleep this sport.

Every year more land gets closed. Every year somebody new to the sport publishes damning evidence that we are all "red necks out tearing up the land". Every year that same somebody new thinks they know more than everyone else.

If you want to stay in this sport, please make the effort to learn the rules and help us "support the sport".

Jim
 
#61 ·
chevytahoe12348923754375434, i think you should make a point of going to the meeting. since you are going into this area of expertise it would help you understand some more of the workings within the dnr and FS and their inability to listen to reason or input from user groups.

it will probably also help the view they have of the full size user groups, to show up and attempt to own up to doing an "illegal" activity and if nothing else say you're sorry and ask for the law to be more clear in the gray areas would show we arent wreckless with our actions.
 
#74 ·
Ok, I think its time for me to chime in now.

I’m the new V.P. of the MTU Four Wheelers for 2007-2008. And I have a few things to add and ask.

First, boy scout is on CFA land. I believe its commercial forest association or something like that. The logging companies own it but in order to not pay taxes on the land they must keep it open to the public for any form of traffic. Either foot or motor. This only applies when it is not being logged, as soon as they start cutting in an area they can close it down. This is the case of boy scout. So my first question, as most of the land we wheel is CFA land does this no spin tires rule still apply?

Second, our club gets a lot of local complaints for things we have never done. Its just easier to target an organized club to pin shit on then blame the actual culprits. I will say, yes we have spun our tires on boy scout in the past wheelin it while it was open. But it was needed to traverse the trail and get through under your own power. As many of the other trails we run spinning the tires is needed to keep forward movement. So I guess according to this 2 wheel law or rule anything that you want to wheel must be able to be traveled by a 2 wheel drive? I know you could never have gotten a 2 wheel drive down boy scout, so we should have never been there? I was an open trail, run by many of both MTU students and locals. Also many of the other trails we run you could never make it down with a 2 wheel drive, so we cant be there either? If these areas can not be run then I don’t see much wheelin here in the Keweenaw that can be done legally. We don’t have scramble areas. If I pick trails to run that are accessible by a 2 wheel drive then we are not wheelin. As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?

Im at a loss here. Seems this sport cant go on any longer in our area with all the shit that has been hitting the fan. This issue we are discussing as well as others in the Keweenaw.

I question for all reading this thread. Have you ever spun your tires on land that was not on an ORV park, or any of these areas in question besides water areas? I find it hard to believe no one has.

I thought the wheelin we did was legal, but apparently what I thought was wheelin is busting the rules. And real wheelin in MI is 2 wheelin. More info on this topic of CFA land and tires being spun would be great as I don’t want to take the club places we should not be.
 
#76 ·
for any form of traffic. Either foot or motor.
No.

They have the right to close trails to motors, if they wish.
They only have to permit hunting and access, but access doesn't necessarily have to be motorized. Be GLAD that they have allowed motorized there as long as they did!

. . .as most of the land we wheel is CFA land does this no spin tires rule still apply?
Unfortunately, and as far as I've been able to discern - yes. Just like the helmet law still applies to private land , or the drug laws. It'
s private property, but if an LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) sees a crime being committed he has the right (and responsibility) to enter the land with out permission and address the crime.

Second, anything that you want to wheel must be able to be traveled by a 2 wheel drive?
On State and CF lands, YES.

. . .so we should have never been there?
Sorry but, nope.

It was an open trail, run by many of both MTU students and locals. Also many of the other trails we run you could never make it down with a 2 wheel drive, so we cant be there either?
A trail that is not blocked is not always 'open'. It's only open until a car couldn't run it, then you're supposed to turn around and leave.

If these areas can not be run then I don’t see much Wheeling here in the Keweenaw that can be done legally. We don’t have scramble areas. If I pick trails to run that are accessible by a 2 wheel drive then we are not wheelin.
Now you're beginning to see why we're trying SO hard to better our situation - AND why it's so easy for the unknowing to cause unintended trouble for us at the AB meetings.

As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?
No, you turn around and leave -- that's a DIRECT quote form Steve K. at an ORV AB meeting.

I'm at a loss here. Seems this sport cant go on any longer in our area with all the shit that has been hitting the fan. This issue we are discussing as well as others in the Keweenaw.
NOW you know why it's SOOOoooo important to join GLFWDA and add your membership to their 'numbers' and add your $20 bucks to their coffers - so they can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I question for all reading this thread. Have you ever spun your tires on land that was not on an ORV park, or any of these areas in question besides water areas? I find it hard to believe no one has.
Of course I have.
BUT, that was a long time ago, before I learned better.
AND I LIKED IT!
THAT'S why I'm doing everything I can to improve our situation.

I thought the wheelin we did was legal, but apparently what I thought was wheelin is busting the rules. And real wheelin in MI is 2 wheelin. More info on this topic of CFA land and tires being spun would be great as I don’t want to take the club places we should not be.
THANK YOU for asking how to do it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd sure like to talk with you and your President in more detail.

PM me your phone #s so I can give you a ring???
 
#78 · (Edited)
Okay, so basically there should be no logging in the upper penninsula, or anywhere in Michigan for that matter. Have you ever seen the ruts from a skidder? HOLY SHIT! How about the skidder they sunk in a swamp off of canal road in houghton, and then got a dozer stuck getting it out (can you say WETLANDS!!). Or the loggers who go down these roads and it is rough as shit, and they are spinning all day long (my buddy is a logger, you should hear some of the stories from him and his buddies).
As far as boyscout goes, there was a group of guys from our club that went to run boyscout when it appeared that it was going to be closed (not a club run). They came across a DNR officer and questioned him if they could go down there, and he had no problems with it what-so-ever. How about when you come to a trail with a bunch of rocks on it? A 2wd car can't make it down there, you are supposed to just turn around? There won't be any erosion taking place. I had one of the founding members of GLFWDA on one of our stocker runs, it was just like one of our usual wheeling runs, and he saw no problems with anything our club was doing. I'm not trying to defend illegal wheeling, but I'm just trying to get these laws in perspective how if the state is benefiting from the money coming in from logging they turn a blind eye, but after these loggers are done and it is already ripped up, they want to call us driving trhough there illegal. You are correct in the fact that the wheeling for us yoopers is completely different than for you trolls. There are plenty of laws out there that don't get enforced (ie, swearing in front of women and children). Thats a Michigan law, make sure you don't do it. Just like none of these laws which you have stated are enforced up here (except for the wetlands one, I watched some stock guy (not in our club) drive down into a swampy area and get stuck, then ticketed by the DNR. I'm not trying to justify breaking of the law, but I'm trying to put it in perspective of why people up here are ignorant (and I'm also venting a little bit). If this is the way its really gonna be I'm getting out of wheeling all together and starting on the monster truck I've been holding off on until after college.

Additions:
Cross streams only at designated fording points, or where the road crosses the stream.
Choose the appropriate winch for your vehicle size.

Both of these come from Tread Lightly's website. Should we be attacking tread lightly as well because they are telling people its okay to cross a stream. Why do we even need a winch if you should never be anywhere you need it? Again, I feel like I sound like I am being confrontational, but I'm just trying to put it in perspective and take a bigger look at the picture.
 
#81 ·
Have you ever seen the ruts from a skidder? HOLY SHIT! How about the skidder they sunk in a swamp off of canal road in houghton, and then got a dozer stuck getting it out (can you say WETLANDS!!). Or the loggers who go down these roads and it is rough as shit, and they are spinning all day long (my buddy is a logger, you should hear some of the stories from him and his buddies).
As far as boyscout goes, there was a group of guys from our club that went to run boyscout when it appeared that it was going to be closed (not a club run). They came across a DNR officer and questioned him if they could go down there, and he had no problems with it what-so-ever. How about when you come to a trail with a bunch of rocks on it? A 2wd car can't make it down there, you are supposed to just turn around? There won't be any erosion taking place. I had one of the founding members of GLFWDA on one of our stocker runs, it was just like one of our usual wheeling runs, and he saw no problems with anything our club was doing. I'm not trying to defend illegal wheeling, but I'm just trying to get these laws in perspective how if the state is benefiting from the money coming in from logging they turn a blind eye, but after these loggers are done and it is already ripped up, they want to call us driving trhough there illegal. You are correct in the fact that the wheeling for us yoopers is completely different than for you trolls. There are plenty of laws out there that don't get enforced (ie, swearing in front of women and children). Thats a Michigan law, make sure you don't do it. Just like none of these laws which you have stated are enforced up here (except for the wetlands one, I watched some stock guy (not in our club) drive down into a swampy area and get stuck, then ticketed by the DNR. I'm not trying to justify breaking of the law, but I'm trying to put it in perspective of why people up here are ignorant (and I'm also venting a little bit). If this is the way its really gonna be I'm getting out of wheeling all together and starting on the monster truck I've been holding off on until after college.
I've said this before......DING, DING, we HAVE A WINNER!
jim-kb8ymf
 
#79 ·
Next week both me and MTU Jeeper will be going down to Crystal Falls MI to the district 3 DNR office to talk to a few DNR officers to get strait forward answers to our questions regarding wheelin in the Keweenaw.

I really need to get this figured out to keep our club alive and wheelin legal.
 
#80 ·
Thank you to MTUJeeper, ckupq, chevytahoe564, and todd for coming on and admitting some responsibility for the video's or afilliation to the individuals shown in them.
I know you might not have liked what you heard about the state of four-wheeling in Michigan and where you can/can not go but I hope this will make you become more aware of the issues we face in Michigan.
For many years the users in the UP have thought they were immune to the 'long arm of the law', but times are a changing.
I hope you consider Trail_Fanatic's offer to join up and help us educate other users as well as the DNR in developing the needed recreation in this state.
(ADDED NOTE: Please report back on your meeting with them)
jim-kb8ymf
 
#96 ·
Thank you to MTUJeeper, ckupq, chevytahoe564, and todd for coming on and admitting some responsibility for the video's or afilliation to the individuals shown in them.
Jim, I appreciate the thanks, but I just want to get it out there that I nor my club has any affiliation with any videos posted except for the fact that we attend the same school. I just have to do this to cover the clubs ass. I will admit that I was ignorant to the extent of how SHITTY the laws in this state run by Mrs. Moley our god-forsaken liberal (insert bad word here) of a governor (sorry, had to release some steam there) have become. I've been considering getting out of the sport to start on my own monster truck (I work on a pit crew now) and this just makes it even more appealing. I will gladly stay and fight, but if I have to have it on my mind that I am breaking the law every time I wheel, it kinda takes the fun out of it. I need a few of these...:beer:
 
#82 ·
I've been keeping pretty quite about this, but I just have to remark about one thing..........


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?

No, you turn around and leave -- that's a DIRECT quote form Steve K. at an ORV AB meeting.


If this is the case in this state, we have already Lost, there is no trail riding in Michigan that is legal, Its time to name this state Cali-Michigan.

How did it get this way, who is responsible,...........and How do we fix it?
I'm sorry to say, even though I have a ton of respect for you guys and the work you do to save our trails. I'm afraid its all for naught.

Apparently, what I'm reading from all of these posts is that if a CO or a DNR official wants to give you a ticket you are going to get one, and every time you drive on a two track you are breaking the law because of a tire spin.

All tires spin in dirt!!!!!!! That's the way they are designed.

Does anybody want to buy my XJ or FLareside? I guess I'm done.
 
#84 ·
So, if they take away your beer are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your cell phone are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your right to hunt are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your right to fish are you going to stand for it?


Do you care about your sport? If so, get involved. Right now, GLFWDA goes to meetings and says "listen to us. We have 300 people and we want places to play". If everyone on this site would stop bickering and join together, we could go to the state and say "we have THOUSANDS of people and we represent THOUSANDS of recreation dollars". Then we could have some impact.
 
#85 ·
Everyday another "right" is taken away from us. You cant win with just one aproach, it isn't possible as long as we have someone with a pen running this state who can write an executive order any (^&(*&(*) time she want too.

You better get some members into the legislative seats, if you want your rules changed.

I can take action sitting on the local planning commission (which I do) and not be a member. But this is the first time, anyone has even remotely contacted me about the legal issues of wheeling in order to do something about it.

The word is not getting to the right people...............somehow we have to fix this. Do you suppose someone could drive a Jeep up Levin's rear-end far enough to get his attention, instead of him spending all of his time going after the war? I personally think you need to start making changes in who you are talking to.
People on this board are good people and don't purposely try to destroy nature. But if we cant use it.............why would it matter? It's time to start doing more then blowing smoke!!!!
 
#83 ·
MTUjeeper,
I understand you are not trying to be confrontational nor arguementative. You are expressing many of the same concerns and questions that have been debated over and over.

Personally, I believe money talks. Down here, I can show you multiple areas where wetlands have been filled in all in the name of "progress" and "development". I don't agree with it, just stating it the way it is. I frequently explore in northern Canada. The logging in Michigan doesn't even compare to the damage they do up there. They go in and make 4 lane wide roads for miles and miles to get to the latest logging site. And I have seen skidder ruts that have 4" diameter trees growing in them and they still look like they were just made last year. There are 137 windmill going in north of the Soo. You should see the roads that they made for them! But let any of us spin a tire and we are "bad guys". I feel for you and agree with you. That's why we need to fight to keep our land open.

Regarding the Tread Lightly quotes: They don't say "this doesn't apply to Michigan" nor are they discussing laws. They are merely stating the best way to have the lowest impact. If you want to look for contradictions regarding things that are written, you and I could sit down together, spend a week at it and not be done.

Logging in Michigan? Big money dictates special permits. But as I mentioned above, the new forest certification plans are meant to lower this long term impact. It is being pushed by the tree huggers and goes so far as to try to close all human access. Again, it's not just us that are going to be impacted. It is all of the user groups. Hunters, mushroomers, bird watchers, you name it.

A little advise from Ted Nugent: Ted Nugent had a radio talk show down here which focused on hunting laws, access, & stuff. He used to preach that when attending government meetings, don't show up with camo, hunting knives on your belts, etc. No yelling, ranting or argueing. Rather dress well (not in a suit) speak well, be professional, be polite. So, if you guys go to meet the local DNR, please keep that in mind.

Please don't quit and go away. Rather help us to support the sport.

Jim
 
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