Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest - View Single Post - Our super-secret and anonymous representative council
View Single Post
Old February 15th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #8
Member since 1994
Trail_Fanatic's Avatar
Join Date: 03-25-06
Location: Muskegon and Oceana Counties
Posts: 3,175
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post

Our very first publicly announced council member! (after how many years of silence on every single orv issue brought forward over that very long period of time?).
How many years of silence? None. I've always been vocal. If I have an answer to a question that no one else has poted yet, I post it. I've been attending various meetings, learning the ropes, and trying to get up to speed for just over a year now. Not an esy task, but I'm making progress.

Are you here to make a statement as to who else serves on this council representing orvs in the state of Michigan and what their collective views are....or have you come across the moat to take a potshot; heave up the drawbridge and return defiantly to the collective fortress?
I was just making a statement -- I go to the meetings. The 'council' Is made of representaticves from the organized off road groups - cycle, atv, and jeep/truck. When I say I represent the over 50" crowd, it's by default. I'm there as a representative of GLFWDA. I don't know of any Michigan organization representing the RUV class of over 50" ORVs. If there is, PLEASE let me know. I'd be interested in getting them onboard.

Please, I don't 'heave up' things. I'm more than willing to try to address your questions and concerns as best I can, but it would be a lot easier if you'd post them without the name calling. You've never even met me. I happen to be a pretty nice guy who really does want to make a difference. Just bear in mind that I've only been at it for a year.

A couple questions if you don't mind.
I am a long time Rhino owner who certainly had trouble joining the "over 50 inch" folks that at least "I" talked to when my rig first hit the market.
Question #1...wasn't it you and your council who literally bragged about killing the 60" widening bill (House Bill 5343) in less than 26 hours???....):

And if you are indeed Mr. "over 50 inch".....who do I talk to PUBLICLY on this council about the new Polaris RZR and how this innovative manufacturer has literally shoved this groundbreaking machine right on up your collective rear ends after your 'representative council' immediately jumped all over this environmentally sound widening bill brought forward through Representative Hildenbrand and others without public or even orv community commentary?

Link didn't work for me. ???
I get this:
Error Occurred While Processing Request File not found: /Feature..Ranger-RZR.cfm

  • Enable Robust Exception Information to provide greater detail about the source of errors. In the Administrator, click Debugging & Logging > Debugging Settings, and select the Robust Exception Information option.
  • Check the ColdFusion documentation to verify that you are using the correct syntax.
  • Search the Knowledge Base to find a solution to your problem.
Browser Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; InfoPath.1)Remote Address Date/Time 15-Feb-07 10:24 PM

And as a follow-up....Did you support the notion that widening these trails to 60 inches was indeed 'cost prohibitive'....while at the same time ram-rodding even more mileage through this council and later our legislature? (we show up at our advisory board meeting only to be told that our trails are in disgusting disrepair and should indeed be closed down for 'study'...yet the next thing you know....Polaris is getting their teeth kicked out over establishing the correct width needed to actually MAINTAIN these trails correctly with decent equipment! (while yet even more trails are ADDED with absolutely no public discussion whatsoever as to the actually funding of ANY of this new mileage).

Like I stated abovcve, I'v only been involved for a year now, but I can at least give you my perspective. Keep in mind this is the first I've heard of this and truely wish the link was good.

My perspective:

I believe you had trouble joining an RUV group when you bought your first machine. I don't know of one either. There are enough of them sold to warrant the creation of one.

I wasn't involved yet and don't know if they bragged or not, but . . .
The State system is already set up for 50" and 72" trails and routes. I can understand that the DNR and/or the MMRC of that time period would find the creation of a 60" system, or the widening of the 50" trails to 60", would be cost prohibitive when 72" routes are already provided. It's only 6" more on each side.

No mileage was brought about by the MMRC, we're just trying to find the best way to utilize what the legislature was kind enough to grant us.

I'd like more info on the Polaris issue you brought up . . .if you can do it calmly, please.

And excuse me, if indeed "there (is) nothing 'super-secret' about the MMRC...."
....then how in the heck did 'ol "blackballed" below (myself) get both his name and signature?

I'm not sure what you're what you're trying to say there?
Here's what I get when I click the link:
Error Occurred While Processing Request File not found: /mess..did/473974.cfm

Please try the following:
  • Enable Robust Exception Information to provide greater detail about the source of errors. In the Administrator, click Debugging & Logging > Debugging Settings, and select the Robust Exception Information option.
  • Check the ColdFusion documentation to verify that you are using the correct syntax.
  • Search the Knowledge Base to find a solution to your problem.
Browser Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; InfoPath.1)Remote Address Date/Time 15-Feb-07 10:24 PM

"...Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?..."

How many MORE times would you like me to "show up" ALL THE TIME - IF you can BE NICE, never if you can't be constructive...and how do my appearances "showing up" compare with 99% of the folks out there who have never made a trip to Lansing or maybe never even hosted youth training sessions out of their own damn pockets? Huh? I don't understand your comparison, please clarify.
How would you like "showing up" after driving all the way to Lansing....and then be rudely shouted down; lied to and gaveled out the door before your alloted time to publicly speak was over with? I'd have to question your presentation skills. A calmly asked, logically stated, question or concern has always been addressed nicely -- at least at the meetings since spring of '06.

"Show up"....why don't YOU show up when it comes time to answer the tough questions that I've brought forward on this board to date Uh, that's what I'm doing ...instead of taking the simpleton 'attack' route like every other arrogant and anonymous member of the council that you sit on with a bag over your head?

Please understand that I work a full and a part time job, then come home and have the familly, then I spend 2-3 hours on wheeling issues. That doesn't leave a lot of time for surfing the forums. When I'm here, I post, then I move on to the next thing.

"...Heaven knows we could use the help..."

What help????

'Help' in bashing every orv user out there who comes up with a legitimate question directed towards representative 'leaders' that they can't even contact without spending several years attempting to determine who they even ARE or what they are in effect telling others as to what 'we' want?

The MMRC aren't your leaders. GLFWDA are the leaders for the street legal 4x4s, ccc for the bikes, there are a couple of assns for the quads, but I havn't heard of any for the RUV user group. The MMRC is just a format for these different types of user groups to get together and discuss what's affecting our sports and try to figure out ways that we can all agree on to address the issues as they come up.

Where in the heck were you when I needed "help" in getting the damn orv advisory board to meet as scheduled right smack dab in the middle of the single most important period in Michigan's orv history?
Probably home, I wasn't interested in activism yet.
How about 'help' in forcing the DNR to publish the damn meeting minutes a full 8 weeks after that?
Or was "Mr. over 50 inch" so far 'in the know' during this critical time period....that us mere peons out here with no bag to put over our head ....weren't really a 'concern' in regards to even the most basic of tenants involving procedural protocol and our right to be heard as citizens of this state??
Same as above, didn't startt until spring of '06

"...Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either...."

You know something, Trail Fanatic...I'll complain any time I DAMN WELL LIKE when it comes to you and your MMRC 'buddies' supposedly representing me for all these years without so much as even a meeting minutes published and literally tens of millions now on the line affecting MY resource. You certainly have the right to complain, just remember that everyone else has the right to ignore you too. More people might be willing to listen if it was presented nicely.
How such a flat out arrogant attitude (wow, I've never been called arrogant before) such as yours can be so wide-spread in this community is certainly beyond me; yet your failure to tackle even ONE of the tough questions raised since I've had the pleasure of joining this forum; tells me that 'silence' is about all we're going to indeed receive from 'leaders' such as yourself while these millions do indeed get spent .

I can't tackle a question I don't know exists, and I don't know they exist until I get a chance to log on and read them . . . like tonight . . . and then I answer the one's I see and have an answer for.

"...Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works...."

Here you are avoiding every damn question about the problems themselves.....effectively BLOCKING every single discussion designed to dig away at the root of our problems while offering solutions at the same time...and all you've got for a 'comeback' is that each one of these is MY problem not 'worthy' of your input!

I mean, really TF....doesn't the above statement almost DEFINE the arrogance I've been describing here in almost graphic detail???
Can you possibly GET any more look-down-your-nose than that...or are you simply 'warming up'?

We ALL know there are problems. We could go on for days and days about the problems. It doesn't do any godd unless we can think of ways to FIX them, so why waste the time? Time that could be used more effectively writing a letter to a decision-maker about one of the many current issues. What we NEED are solutions.

"....One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up...."

Which is the biggest bunch of fluff politico spin ever thought up and one that has been used by rank amateur politicians for years.

99.9% of the folks bringing any issue before ANYBODY damn well possess a solution in mind and aren't a bit 'afraid' to tell you about it....IF GIVEN THE CHANCE TO DO SO.

this whole forum is a chance to do so, instead you choose to complain.

What usually gets in the way of these good folks ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHING THIS; is, again, 'spin meisters' like yourself continually attempting to divert any and all attention away from the subject at hand.
Want an example?
How about all the very simple and direct questions asked previously (there must be 'fifty' good ones by now where)....with nothing but a claim by you me, personally? that absolutely no solutions can be found in either the questions themselves or god forbid the massive amount of text put forth to date indeed explaining how we need to fix what is broken. You've lost me. Can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you're trying to reference here.

If you want to act like the rest of these guys and re-direct everything thrown at you with well worn out politico 'sayings'...have at it.

Yet I believe there are a few on this board who understand the facts brought forward to date here whether I get kicked off of this forum before explaining them further or not.

I don't like talking to long-respected members of these forums like this (That's OK, I'm new), believe this crap has gone on for far to long and it must stop before our kids lose any further interest in getting involved in these issues.
If these young people (I AM one of these young people!) have to work even half as hard as I have had to in wading through the cast of condescending characters standing in their way on these issues...who in the heck here believes that they will ever pick up even one of them and run with it??? It's not easy, but can be done.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by:


Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.

Then 'Google' these anonymous bastards operating as our supposed voice for YEARS now and pay special attention to the heading "Concerns of trail riders delay changes in ORV rules...".

Got this:
Sorry, we couldn't find
do you have any links that work?

Now tell me something Mr. "over 50 inch"....what in the heck machine do these goofs want 'banned' if they are not indeed regulated in WHAT manner?

And are you in possesssion of some kind of holier-than-thou 'proclamation' from these arrogant arses regarding the further use of my machine or god forbid the Polaris RZR that we here in the overall orv community are presently unaware of?

Uh, no proclamations here.

What's next?

ORVs on Road Shoulders
Placement recomendations for new trails and routes granted by the Legislature.

You and your anonymous buddies working hard into the night on seeking to 'ban' this grounbreaking machine from the 50" trails also?

Not working on it, but I have ot ask . . .
Is it more than 50 inches wide?

Seems to me that as our side-by-side 'representative' (by default of YOUR sport's enthusiasts) SURELY should have all manner of commentary regarding this new product that Polaris finally and thankfully shoved right back up your rear ends when you slammed the door in both their and OUR faces here in Michigan.(sorry, but in the less than 26 hours it took to kill this thing...NOT A 'PEON' MEMBER OF THIS ORV COMMUNITY EITHER KNEW ABOUT THIS BILL OR RECEIVED EVEN A FAIR OPPORTUNITY TO SO MUCH AS COMMENT ON SAME....AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT).

So now that you've Googled this 100% out-in-the-open represenative council that you're "Mr. over 50 inch" many and what references do you find explaining exactly what they or you believe in (beyond feel good politico speak) and more importantly...can you ascertain just HOW they are representing us with all these 10's of millions of dollars now on the line?

The MMRC can do nothing but make recomendations (like any onther group or user) to the Department. It is the Department who spends the money. There was a great deal of discussino about the budget at the last Advisory board meeting though. It sounds like they might form a Sub-committee to look into long-term funding of the State ORV program.
Originally posted by OneManBanned:

Adding to the comment above regarding our community representative's suggestion to ban these 'new' machines (not motorcycles obviously) or definitely by gosh further regulate their there somebody on your super-secret council addressing Mr. Moll's pressing issue here (page 4) immediately before the last orv advisory board meeting adjourned?

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/info_48.png[/IMG] The webpage cannot be found

HTTP 404
Most likely causes:
  • <LI id=causeErrorInAddress>There might be a typing error in the address.
  • If you clicked on a link, it may be out of date.
What you can try:

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Retype the address.

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Go back to the previous page.

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Go to and look for the information you want.

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/down.png[/IMG]More information

Another link that doesn't work.

Is it your job Mr "over 50 inch" to contact both the NOHVCC and the CPSC (and I'd like to know who in the heck suggested that course of action to brush this inexplainable outburst quickly under the rug ) regarding Mr. Moll's insistence that something by gosh be done about this???


...and Michigan orv enthusiasts have allowed this guy's term to expire in December without so much as a 'peep' from ANYBODY in the orv community......for exactly what reason?

I don't have a reason, do you?

Yeah, we need one of the few true orv representives we have on that board writing letters to Polaris, Yamaha and the all the other manufacturers out there as to how they should damn well build their products.

And you guys expect that we should all just 'leave it up to you' and certainly quit asking these pesky questions as to just who represents us or what they have to say in meetings with others even more important to this sport?
NO! don't leave it up to us, I already said -- JOIN US!
We can use every person willing to volunteer.

By "we", I mean the orv community.
Trail_Fanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Page generated in 0.39541 seconds with 22 queries