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Can I drive my full size rig down a quad trail in michigan if I don't hit any trees?

8K views 71 replies 22 participants last post by  kb8ymf 
#1 ·
discuss.
 
#4 ·
short answer: no

long answer:

Definitions which define where and how ORV/ATVs may be operated include:

“Forest Road” Forest roads are hard surfaced roads, gravel and dirt roads, and other routes that can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel drive vehicle designed for highway use (passenger car), including fire lanes and logging roads. “Forest Road” does NOT include any state, federal or county highways or roads. In general, forest road means a road OTHER THAN A COUNTY OR STATE ROAD that the family car can operate on without assistance. ORV license is required.

“Designated” means posted OPEN for ORV use with appropriate signs.

“Designated Route” means a forest or county road which has been signed for ORV use by the DNR. For ORVs of all sizes. Either ORV or Secretary of State conventional licensing is required.

“Designated Area” means an area that is signed for cross-country ORV use by the DNR. ORV license is required.

“Forest Trail” Forest trails are designated paths or ways that can only be traveled by vehicles that are less than 50" in width. ORV license is required.
 
#7 ·
short answer: no

long answer:

Definitions which define where and how ORV/ATVs may be operated include:

“Forest Road” Forest roads are hard surfaced roads, gravel and dirt roads, and other routes that can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel drive vehicle designed for highway use (passenger car), including fire lanes and logging roads. “Forest Road” does NOT include any state, federal or county highways or roads. In general, forest road means a road OTHER THAN A COUNTY OR STATE ROAD that the family car can operate on without assistance. ORV license is required.

Where do I find the definition of "coventional"? I can now go purchase a 4x4 with front/rear lockers right off a car dealership lot. Is this conventional if I use 2 wheel drive?



What happens if my "family car" is a jeep?
 
#6 ·
If your rig is 50" wide or less, fine.

Otherwise, no.

And from a practical perspective, you'd have a hard time making it through pretty much any of them. While some have wider areas or use snow machine trail segments, I have a hard time getting my 48" Polaris through some.
 
This post has been deleted
#14 ·
Can I drive my full size rig down a quad trail in michigan if I don't hit any trees?

If the trail is conspicously narrow such that it appears to be designed for a Quad AND you are wider than 50" you 'could' get a ticket. Once again it is subject to 'some' interpetation from the DNR Officer.
The problem come in how the trail was developed. Many <50" trails are really 2 tracks in the woods that had the entrance relocated to go through two trees 51" wide. Once you pass through the strainer, the trail opened up to a old logging road. Wide enough for a full size rig. USFS is notorious for this tactic.
There are also forest roads marked with 'ORV Trail' triangles. If it's got two tracks and obvioulsy shows signs of travel, it's legal to be there. The ORV Trail sign in itself does NOT regulate what size vehicle is allowed on the trial.
Case in point, Look at Drummond. Those roads were marked for ORV Trail because they wanted to allow unlicensed Quads and M/C on the trail. Street legal vehicles were already allowed there. However, due to a total lack of this understanding, the Quad and M/C community believed they were the only ones allowed on that trail. There is some discussion to revise this trail system to alleviate this mis-understanding.
The other rub comes with the fact I do not see in the law where it is illegal for dull size rigs to be on ,50" trails. The law only say's these are the two sizes for vehicles in the woods. It says designed for vehicles <50", NOT illegal for those over 50" to be on them.
The 50" width is a nationwide width. Which is why the Plaris Razor has become popular. 50" wide on the button and sits' two abreast. Much like the old Honda Odysey except update with new technology.

95Geo answered the slippery road condition question. In fact GLFWDA has a letter from the DNR that spells out that situation exactly. We'll get that posted in the very near future.

Relative to the definition of 'conventional'? This is a situation where the law has failed to keep pace with technology. The DNR refuses to remove the 2WD clause from the current law because it was put there to stop the cross country travel that they (DNR) say the Quads and M/C were doing after the original P.A. 319 was passed in the late 70's. It took till 1991 for them to 'figure out a method' to get them back on the forest road. That revision however went un-noticed when the law was revised.
Every time we try to revise it, we get stymied by the DNR. The Legislature always ask's the DNR for their opinion on revision to the ORV law. If the DNR doesn't want it changed, it won't get changed unless we get substantual momentum and leverage from the Legislature.

'Cliff notes for CC' If you fit reasonabally legitimately, your OK. Unless the DNR officer is having a bad day!
Jim-kb8ymf
 
#54 ·
If the trail is conspicously narrow such that it appears to be designed for a Quad AND you are wider than 50" you 'could' get a ticket. Once again it is subject to 'some' interpetation from the DNR Officer.
The problem come in how the trail was developed. Many <50" trails are really 2 tracks in the woods that had the entrance relocated to go through two trees 51" wide. Once you pass through the strainer, the trail opened up to a old logging road. Wide enough for a full size rig. USFS is notorious for this tactic.
There are also forest roads marked with 'ORV Trail' triangles. If it's got two tracks and obvioulsy shows signs of travel, it's legal to be there. The ORV Trail sign in itself does NOT regulate what size vehicle is allowed on the trial.
Case in point, Look at Drummond. Those roads were marked for ORV Trail because they wanted to allow unlicensed Quads and M/C on the trail. Street legal vehicles were already allowed there. However, due to a total lack of this understanding, the Quad and M/C community believed they were the only ones allowed on that trail. There is some discussion to revise this trail system to alleviate this mis-understanding.
The other rub comes with the fact I do not see in the law where it is illegal for dull size rigs to be on ,50" trails. The law only say's these are the two sizes for vehicles in the woods. It says designed for vehicles <50", NOT illegal for those over 50" to be on them.
The 50" width is a nationwide width. Which is why the Plaris Razor has become popular. 50" wide on the button and sits' two abreast. Much like the old Honda Odysey except update with new technology.

95Geo answered the slippery road condition question. In fact GLFWDA has a letter from the DNR that spells out that situation exactly. We'll get that posted in the very near future.
Relative to the definition of 'conventional'? This is a situation where the law has failed to keep pace with technology. The DNR refuses to remove the 2WD clause from the current law because it was put there to stop the cross country travel that they (DNR) say the Quads and M/C were doing after the original P.A. 319 was passed in the late 70's. It took till 1991 for them to 'figure out a method' to get them back on the forest road. That revision however went un-noticed when the law was revised.
Every time we try to revise it, we get stymied by the DNR. The Legislature always ask's the DNR for their opinion on revision to the ORV law. If the DNR doesn't want it changed, it won't get changed unless we get substantual momentum and leverage from the Legislature.

'Cliff notes for CC' If you fit reasonabally legitimately, your OK. Unless the DNR officer is having a bad day!
Jim-kb8ymf
I know this post is a few months old but the DNR web site http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handbook/land_use_rules.htm

now states:

"Forest Roads: Hard-surfaced roads, gravel and dirt roads, and other routes that can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel-drive vehicle designed for highway use (passenger car). Forest roads include fire lanes and logging roads. Forest roads do not include any state, federal, or county highways or roads. In general, forest road means a road other than a county or state road on which a family car can operate without assistance.

Designated ORV Trail: Designated paths or ways that can only be traveled by vehicles that are less than 50 inches in width. An ORV license is required."

So has the DNR updated the “Land use Rules” , since the earlier posts, to clarify this or is it that the “Forest Road” definition trumps the Signed Designated ORV Trails ?

Also, I have seen several posts regarding a letter the DNR sent to GLFWDA regarding slippery road conditions and the use of 4 wheel drive, but I have not seen the letter. Can someone post the letter?

Thanks,
Ken
 
#16 ·
I have found that on the wolf lake area/baldwin trails, if it is marked for atv's you cant drive down it with a jeep no matter how well you fit. and with the state giving out less and less money, dnr officers are handing out more tickets than ever, its best not to chance it. its the same say saying that you 85cc dirtbike may be able to go the minimum speed for the highway and have blinkers, but its still not allowed to drive there.
 
#18 ·
The subjective interpretation of a CO is the part that will do you in. Last year on DI our we passed 2 DNR COs on quads on a marked ORV Trail. They were investigating illegal driving on the shale beach and were checking tires as we drove by, looking for a specific tread pattern. They waved as we drove past. That particular trail is a typical forest road, in most places 6-8 feet or more wide. The designation allows ATVs to use a trail that is otherwide legal for a SOS licensed vehicle since it meets the State's definition of a forest road.
 
#24 ·
the DNR is ticket happy. state and county/city cops for the most part are reasonable where i come from, but the DNR just throws the book as hard as they can. If you can argue a DNR officer out of writing you a ticket, call OJ and offer your services, he needs em.
 
#30 ·
Where are the streakers and the hippies when you need em. We need some jobless people with nothing better to do then sit in court days on end and fight tooth and nail for us.

Thanks to those of you on here that already do that for us as much as you can afford to it is certainly appreciated.
 
#31 · (Edited)
The Huron-Manistee NF is fond of 're-designating' two tracks to 50" and less only trails. Unfortunately, most of the time, they have their poop in a group enough to officially disallow larger vehicle traffic during the 'paper-pushing' portion of the process.

They have had a 'Transportation Management Plan' in place since the late 80s. The map created by this Plan is going to be the basis for the HMNF's Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) in spring '09. The only sure-fire way to be sure a trail is legal is to see if it's on the current transportation map.

Of course, in typical governmental fashion, there's a problem here too. The dilemma is that the map "Is not available to the public at this time" according to the NFS. This was their response when United Four Wheel Drive Association's Attorney, Carla Boucher, asked for a copy of it to aid in the formation of our Appeal of the HMNF's 2006 Forest Plan.

According to Carla, this creates a number of legal issues (Gray areas, if you like). If the map was available, it would be a no-brainer, it's either on the map or not. This will be the case after the new MVUM is published. The map isn't available though, so this leaves the Forest to revert back to the open unless posted closed to SOS vehicles law for Federal lands. The situation is further blurred toward our favor (for now) by the NF's continuous allowance of public use of the trails by not obstructing or otherwise indicating a closure.

Sorry, I thought you needed more smoke and mirrors to help you figure it all out! :tonka:

Other than that, KB8YMF has it on the nose.
Almost makes a person want to go out and get a ticket just to fight it, eh?
Wheeler's form of civil disobenience. :sonicjay:
 
#39 ·
But is a weighted hook illegal on a 50" trail? :poke:


The misdemeanor is the part that rubs me the wrong way. There are a whole lot of bad things you can do in a vehicle and still just get a ticket for a traffic violation. Throw a little mud on state land and they put you in the same bucket with someone who left the scene of an accident.
 
#40 ·
#42 ·
50" trails, the ability to drive a full size orv on them, and the DNR's abuse of the power we give them.
 
#45 ·
I'm just staying off the 50" trails, I took one in out of boredom off of 37 to the west, south of Peacock and it quickly narrowed down and I'm tire wedged pretty good between stumps, hoping I extract myself before some pissed quad with a cell fingered me. The state routes are lame, but do serve as a good way to negotiate to the next watering hole.
I can barely swing gas, let alone some $200 fine or something
 
#46 ·
I wanna see a family car get down some of the 2 tracks and firelanes around here. I know if some between Kalkaska and TC that have some hills on them that when you get to the top you cant see the fing bottom on the other side. Let's see the conventional car go down those.

So in other words if I buy an orv tag ans slap it on my rig, if I can fit on the trail am I legal?
 
#47 ·
At the risk of opening this up again. If you can't drive the road/trail in a 2WD family sedan, and the road/trail does NOT have an orange ORV Route triangle on it, Your illegal and can get a ticket. Lot's of the road up in TC are illegal. The DNR is just a bit lax in some areas and therefore it has been assumed that these roads/trails are legal, The are not.
If you re-read the entire post and others regarding events on state land you will see that there are some difference between state and federal land but even those are subject to interpretation.
If you can't find them, reply here and I'm sure someone will dig them up.
jim-kb8ymf
 
#49 ·
Hey ya'll, a little FYI regarding trails on the Manistee National Forest...

"ORV" is a generic term; an ORV could be a truck, a jeep, a quad, a dirt bike, or whatever. On the National Forest, the ORV trails are open only to ORV's 50" wide or less, and meet the legal definition of an "ATV". If you are bored, you can look up the Michigan legal definition of an ATV, but to paraphrase this means dirt bikes and quads. If you are taking a piece of equipment that is 51" or larger down a trail on the National Forest, then you are illegal. Referring back to what the one guy was saying...the ability to make your vehicle squeeze through does NOT make you legal.

The ORV trails on the National Forest, at least the portions from Baldwin south are marked with orange triangles with a dirt bike or quad icon, and there are usually posts, signs, or maps where trails cross larger roads indicating that it is a trail open to motorcycles and/or quads and is closed to all other motorized vehicles. Bottom line, if you are caught on one of these trails on something wider than 50", you are subject to fines and maybe also a mandatory court appearance. The only things subject to interpretation is how many different things you can be ticketed for...

As far as ORVing on other parts of the forest, if it's legal for any vehicle to drive down it, then you are generally okay; provided you aren't tearing things up...but this is another area subject to interpretation...if a ranger, CO, or other officer comes along and determines that you are damaging resources, then you can be ticketed, even if you are operating a legal vehicle on a legal route.

Bottom line: if you wanna know where to operate an ORV on the National Forest legally, then you need to call the main HQ office in Cadillac (231-775-2421), or one of the district offices in Baldwin (231-745-4631) or Manistee (231-723-2211). On the east side of the state (the old Huron NF portion) there are district offices in Mio (989-826-3252) and the Oscoda area (989-739-0728).
 
#64 ·
Let me add to the cofusion. Sometimes the "trail" comes out to a "forest road" and is labled with the Route triangle for a short distance and then tucks back into the woods as a 50" trail again. Sounds good in theory, however, you now have a short (sometimes no more than .25 miles) "Route" that is included in the Route inventory that is essentially unusable to all but SOS licensed vehicles. That is unless your using it for it's unwritten purpose, which is to circumvent or cut short a longer "Trail", a shortcut so to speak.
 
#65 · (Edited)
ORV Trail marker and ORV Trail marker ???What's the difference?
Ken, You showed two ORV Trail markers with each having a different logo, i.e Motorcycle and Quad.
He's another situation where the DNR is doing something that is NOT in the law. Paul M has been raising this issue for years. The DNR 'invented' a 24" trail for motorcycles that is NOT defined in the orv law. So who can go on these? Their almost always too narrow for us BUT Quads can usually fit down them much the same fashion as we fit down trails that are wide enough for Quads.:confused::confused:
What really needs to be done is the DNR needs to recognize full size vechicle as a legitimate user group, and that is starting to happen. THEN they need to reinventory the entire system and mark the trails according to their real vehicle capability. After that is done, and the Trails and Routes are not lying on top on one another, with two groups getting paid for maintaining the same section of Route/Trail, we'll free up thousands of more dollars to develop the additional miles of trails the Legislature mandated they create a few years back. That whole 'new trail initiative' has really been forgotten about because of HB 4232 (road shoulder bill) that is winding it's way through Lansing now.
The DNR has been crying 'woah is me', we don't have enough money to make the new trails we are being asked to create. AND some of the money could be used for St. Helen and The Mounds Rock Crawl which the DNR is also a decimal place off in the cost to do it right.
So does your head hurt even more now?:tonka:
jim-kb8ymf
 
#67 ·
So does your head hurt even more now?:tonka:
jim-kb8ymf
YES !

So, if I have it straight now, the "TRAIL" signage is just messed up, and regardless of what orange triangle, it is still part of the "ORV" system and as long as you fit down the trail and don't drive in an manner that causes an erosive condition - it's O.K. with an ORV sticker or SOS.

Right ?
 
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