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need opinions. legal issues for doing my poker run.

12K views 154 replies 43 participants last post by  joe_jeep 
#1 ·
so i was pm,d about the poker run we are doing yesterday buy the national forest park ranger. i just got off the phone with him. he wants me to get a permit and pay 75.00 dollars,also i must have liability insurance for the ride. the law states ( this is out of his mouth ) that 75 or more people in a gathering must have a permit for any event. i told him this is not an organized event that it is a trail ride. he told me it is an event...so if i dont do these things anyone in the area will be issued a ticket. they will be there looking for any thing they do not like and will be giving tickets out.. my right to drive my vehicle that is street legal through a trail i guess does not matter. should i still do this event and apply for all this? or should i just cancel it and not put myself into a situation for further problums. he basicly made it very clear he is trying to make it imposible for me to do this trail ride..... please keep the bullshit out of this thread. this is a serious matter this is affecting all of our rights 2 drive a 2 track.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I have put on events in the USFS Mio Ranger District and the Cadillac Ranger district a few years back, '86-'87. Some of you may have heard of them, they were called 'The Jeep Cup'. These two events sound like they would be very similiar, a poker run and a TSD Rally. I don't have any paperwork left from the events but here are the basic rules we had to follow and the rationale for them:
One think to remember here is that this is Federal and it is DIFFERENT than the State DNR requirements, however some things are the same, i.e. Insurance and 90 application requirement.

1. The participants are using public resources 'over and above' what would be considered normal. This is why a 'Fee' is being charged. Much like using a Pavallion at your local community park. You might have payed taxes to build the facility but assembling a larg group is outside the normal anticipated use.
The State DNR has 20 vehicle or 20 person criteria, the USFS appears to have something around 75. This number was never referenced in my event because we had 200+ people there so we were already over the limit.
2. The liability insurance is a 'catch all' so any damage done by the group can be recouped via the insurance.
3.We had a Application Fee which included paperwork and post field inspection.
4. We also used to have a road bond posting of $250-$1000 depending on how much damage the Officer thought was going to be done. GLFWDA ended up loosing the bond both years due to splashing the water out of some low spots in the road.
5. One thing not mentioned yet is the USE fee. The USFS charged us a fee based upon the # or miles used X the $$ charged regardless of what it was for, X # or participants X some factor + $$$$ you owed the USFS for use of the public property outside it's normal use. And an EVENT is outside what is considered normal. If you sat up on one of the forest roads any afternoon, how many vehicles might go bay you in a single afternoon. Less that if you had an event.
I've got way more to add but want to read some more of the posts to help clarify what has been policy with the USFS in the past.
jim-kb8ymf
 
#39 ·
I have put on events in the USFS Mio Ranger District and the Cadillac Ranger district a few years back, '86-'87. Some of you may have heard of them, they were called 'The Jeep Cup'. These two events sound like they would be very similiar, a poker run and a TSD Rally. I don't have any paperwork left from the events but here are the basic rules we had to follow and the rationale for them:

1. The participants are using public resources 'over and above' what would be considered normal. This is why a 'Fee' is being charged. Much like using a Pavallion at your local community park. You might have payed taxes to build the facility but assembling a larg group is outside the normal anticipated use.
The State DNR has 20 vehicle or 20 person criteria, the USFS appears to have something around 75. This number was never referenced in my event because we had 200+ people there so we were already over the limit.
2. The liability insurance is a 'catch all' so any damage done by the group can be recouped via the insurance.
3.We had a Application Fee which included paperwork and post field inspection.
4. We also used to have a road bond posting of $250-$1000 depending on how much damage the Officer thought was going to be done. GLFWDA ended up loosing the bond both years due to splashing the water out of some low spots in the road

:sonicjay: You beat me to it! :d:
 
#38 ·
I'm a little confused about this "permit" or "Event Fee" that they are wanting to get. Is this a USFS thing, or a State thing? Something really is fishy here, because on the DNR site IIRC states things VERY different. So now what, now that maybe the "permit" is payed for, there are also other State "permits" to get or something?

Also, I really thing more people need to look into supporting GLFWDA, this is what they are for, and I know are already looking into this for Allen.
 
#40 ·
Bottom line, you will need the permit. I'm surprised at the number being 75 since the DNR listing is 20 people. I'm not gonna dig for it on my computer but trust me, I can produce it.

This is one of the reasons GLFWDA promotes runs thru it's membership. We already have the insurance. But, everyone attending MUST be a GLFWDA member. This is not our rule, it's the insurance companies.
 
#50 ·
Bottom line, you will need the permit. I'm surprised at the number being 75 since the DNR listing is 20 people. I'm not gonna dig for it on my computer but trust me, I can produce it.
Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

R 299.921 Definitions....
...(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated,
scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.
 
#41 ·
Where I struggle with both the USFS AND the State DNR is that the hunters and especially the snowmobilers NEVER have been required to get a permit. The most the hunters have to do is get a camp permit. I think that is $50 from what I remember. How often do you see 20 or more snowmobilers up north on a ride in the winter, PLENTY OFTEN!
There are other groups that congregate but don't necessarily make it public knowledge and therefore stay below the radar
There are two issues taking place here.
1. The laws have not recognized a 'non organized' gathering that DOES NOT POST SIGNS IN THE WOODS. The current laws reference sign installation and removal and they are always suprised when we tell them we don't put any up!
2. This is another 'revenue opportunity'. i.e. We have someone using the forest and the Gov't bureacrats believe that this must be managed. I know there will always be the 'Right to Assemble' argument but 'prairie dogging it', or poking your head above the radar will always be cause to attract attention. Which was done here.
As everyone else pointed out, the DNR and USFS officers are doing us a big injustice, which could be (my opinion) used as proof of entrapment if they are here reading the happenings and activity of the community but fail to comment on what might be taking place that is incorrect, again , my opinion.
jim-kb8ymf
 
#42 ·
Basically they are only going to be happy with two outcomes.

1- They ticket the hell out of us and we continue to pay up and they get a great source of revenue.

2- We get so pissed off that we stop using trails in Michigan and the tree huggers are happy and keep electing their people into office.
 
#44 ·
my problum is jack(sandy corners) has guided tours through all parts of were i was going and he has no permits. he also charges alot of money and is making a profit on this. this was stated to the ranger.so when is jack getting his tickets? we are doing a free event that is a trail ride. i am not asking for any profit. yes federal laws and state(dnr) are diffrent. he stated that it is 20 in state trails. 60 people, not vehicles. on federal. this whole deal pisses me off!!! the biggest thing is they are spying on us in a 4x4 orianted forum. no freedom or rights anymore i guess...............
 
#45 · (Edited)
jack is not cool. I know him and hate him so bad i wish he would get eaten by giant pubie crabs. he wheels his little **** rides all over the place where he is not supposed to be, then complains about people driving by his store on the road. i wish bad things on him.
 
#46 ·
i am sure i will ruffle some feathers with this next statement. i believe in what great lakes and people like pat are doing is a great thing. but here is my opinion and what i have seen first hand......you mean well but taking a dnr officer and park ranger through all the trails and showing them all these areas is not always a good thing.yes i am sure things will be seen but making them aware and pointing things out has really seemed to hurt areas like this one in general. i truely feel that when it comes down to making the off road guys happy or creating revanue wich in case makes them keep there job, what do you think they will choose....there job.. it all comes down to money..they have closed many of the trails around here for a cross country ski trail...how many skiers did i see last year? 2....how much money did they spend? this is why snowmobilers are so strong is because towns live on them in the winter and the state needsw this...ok i am done i can go on all day...
 
#47 ·
This is almost as bad as the tazer thread. My 2cents after reading the original thread.

From reading the first bunch of posts, most people would think this was an organized trail ride, with marked trails and a game of some kind and a cost of $10. Only later in the thread does it get cleared up that the $10 is for camping and the trail ride part is free. So it is understandable for someone to think this an organized event with an entry fee.

Seems to me the ranger was trying to give you guys a heads up in a round about way. If the ranger has sinister motives, as a lot of you seem to think he does, why would he have posted at all? Why not remain silent and just let you do this thing and then bust everybody at the trail head?

And you guys wonder why he doesn't respond? After the way you guys have slammed him, I can certainly understand why he would not want to post anything at all on these forums. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Seems too many people on the net jump to conclusions before knowing the facts of the situation.

Regardless, why are we alienating the very people we need on our side to save our wheeling rights? Even if the ranger’s motives were to set you guys up (which I don’t believe to be the case), what possible good can come out of e-thugging him over his posts? Time to grow up people.
 
#48 ·
Another member of the sleeper cell emerges. the ranger has been fishing in the thread with his little questions. its not his motives, its his actions. if you have something to say, stand up and say it dammit. dont hide in the crowd.
 
#59 ·
I've been waiting & waiting for some wheeling lawyer to come forward & let us run their interns into the ground doing "goodwill" research for GLFWDA.

As might have been noted somewhere above the discrepancy in numbers 75 vs. 20 is the difference between the USFS & MiDNR.
 
#64 · (Edited)
As might have been noted somewhere above the discrepancy in numbers 75 vs. 20 is the difference between the USFS & MiDNR.
I did see that! I'm looking for the USFS laws right now.

However, I would think that to be 'safe' you'd just go with which ever law is the most strict. I would bring it to the DNR's attention at an ORV advisory board meeting if permits are overlapping and not accepted by one agency or the other, forcing us to buy two permits for the same event.

And as for the comment about DNR officers ticketing people on a whim because they don't "like" something... I gotta call that one out because the DNR has to operate within their own laws. It'd be like a cop issuing you a public indecency ticket because he doesn't "like" your haircut.

Nobody has yet come forward with how much it would cost per person to just get the damn permits and insurance as required.

But don't worry, I'll research that for you next.

THAT'S the kind of person we need to pop in here! Someone who has an interest in BOTH sides and is willing to educate people.
Well, if they keep getting flamed I would think they'll continue to try to stay below radar and it never hurts to INVITE them along for a day on the dirt. They're people too, and I'll bet vital parts of.... Kelly's anatomy (sorry but I haven't lived in Mi for a long time, so I can't be sure) that at least SOME of them enjoy the sport too.
 
#60 ·
Its funny that just a week or so ago someone said the DNR doesn't have time to snoop through forums and such. I hate to bring this up again, but its a little late.
as for the harrasment for the planned ride. I would suggest you email all your info and this thread to the Attorney General Mike Cox. if he knew this was going to be a huge ticket fest he might be inclined to show up and take one for the team. I bet some DNR guys would be eatting crow if they tried that shit on HIM.
 
#67 · (Edited)
I called Liv2mx this morning and left a message.

Talked to Les this morning too.

Nothing said that wasn't covered here.



I wouldn't cancel.


PS: 20 people is on State land, 75 people for Federal land.
 
#68 · (Edited)
Um gang...

Can someone else please look at this and tell me if I'm crazy...

A chart showing the "Land Use Fees" for Michigan. It's a .pdf file.

If I'm reading that thing correctly, and assuming that off-road trail riding is considered "VERY HIGH INTENSITY" activity...the permit could be a MINIMUM of $950??? Someone help, my brain is about to explode. Notice I made an assumption, nobody freak out I'm most likely wrong (I hope)

Oh, and I found a little blurb about the insurance too...

Same location as before:

Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

(m) To hold events including, but not limited to, races, endurance
contests, tournaments, or trail rides, unless the events are conducted pursuant to a permit. The permit may include a charge to the sponsor or permittee for the use of the land. An event may require a performance bond to ensure permit compliance and may require public liability insurance. The department may waive the requirement for a permit for events where the number of participants is 20 or more individuals if the department determines that the event will not require department oversight, and the event will have a minimal impact on the resource and on the use of the lands by others.


What that tells me is this: Need to get some DNR buddies to see RESPONSIBLE wheeling within GL4X4 or your local club. Gain a reputation for being stewards of the land, not "yee-haw ********" (I apologize if you resemble that remark) out to tear up the country side. Then fees will be lower and possibly no need for insurance at all.
 
#70 ·
Um gang...

Can someone else please look at this and tell me if I'm crazy...

A chart showing the "Land Use Fees" for Michigan. It's a .pdf file.

If I'm reading that thing correctly, and assuming that off-road trail riding is considered "VERY HIGH INTENSITY" activity...the permit could be a MINIMUM of $950??? Someone help, my brain is about to explode. Notice I made an assumption, nobody freak out I'm most likely wrong (I hope)
Your forgetting this "event" is happening on USFS lands and not MI State lands. Different policies regarding permits!
 
#73 ·
Okay...My Bad.... I'm shifting gears into Federal Lands Acts. I've put a call into Greg to ask him some questions about juristiction, application of laws and permits in State vs. USFS lands. I'll try to keep it broad based.

I'm also gonna try to see if he knows anyone (personally) local that we can talk to in order to get some straight answers. But it seems TF knows some already, it may just be redundant.

I'm off to search more stuff. I've downloaded some great State oriented .pdf's that will help in the future! ;)
 
#75 ·
I don't recall the specific chapter & verse, but essentially the Federal land will follow state DNR rules as far as things like ORV, hunting, and fishing rules.

Myself, I'm disappointed that the USFS and MDNR folks in the audience don't speak up and join in. It's a great opportunity to communicate, cooperate, and help us (their customers) enjoy our public lands in a safe, sane, and legal manner.

I'm a huge fan of the USFS (a government bureaucracy I don't mind paying taxes for) and have never personally had a bad MDNR experience. I'd love to see an "Ask The Ranger" or "Ask the MDNR CO" forum.
 
#78 ·
I said it 2 pages ago and it keeps getting debated but the bottom line is that he needs to apply for the permit or risk the possibility of getting a ticket.

This thread seems to be new news to everyone but it's not. The Troll's tried a variety of different wording to get around the permit issues. Fees were for food, hall rental, etc. Didn't matter. 20 people on government land needed a permit.

Yes, I would love to see this challenged, but who has the resources to challenge it? Maybe kb8ymf can answer this but I don't think UFWDA has ever attempted to fight this.
 
#81 ·
Yes, I would love to see this challenged, but who has the resources to challenge it? Maybe kb8ymf can answer this but I don't think UFWDA has ever attempted to fight this.
It's not contestable. No one in their right mind would take this to court, You WILL LOOSE!!!!!!!!
The Associations/Clubs out west have accepted this and follow the letter of the law for every event they have. Just look at all the trouble the guys from Las Cruces had last year with their event.
They (Clubs out west) simple roll the fee into the event charge. It's around $20.00 or so right now for a one or two day event but I'm sure some guys here from out west can collaborate.
It's like Mile High Jeep Club's All-4-Fun week that I went to this year. I think I paid at least $100 for permits alone. And I talked with the organizer, the USFS is talking about raising the fees next year. We were just riding the open trails in San Isabella National Forest, no different than If I were to go drive in the Huron/Manistee or any other Federal Forest. if your 'above' the radar as events are, your going to get attention.
jim-kb8ymf
 
#80 ·
I pulled this from the United Four Wheel Drive web page. This may or may not help but here it is:



U.S. FOREST SERVICE SPECIAL USE PERMIT RULE

Effective August 12, 2004, your club or organization may be required to obtain a special use permit if you have 75 people traveling Forest Service roads or if you have less than 75 people and charge a fee for your event.

OVERVIEW

WHAT WAS THE RULE BEFORE?

Prior to August 12, 2004 your club could hold a trail ride by using roads in your National Forest without having to obtain a special use permit, even if you charged a fee for your event, if your event was limited to the use of roads and you didn’t use any other forest lands such as campgrounds or other areas for “staging”.

WHAT IS THE RULE NOW?

As of August 12, 2004 your club will be REQUIRED to obtain a special use permit (SUP) if you have more than 75 PEOPLE in attendance at your event (either as spectators or as participants):

Even if you limit the use of the forest to Forest Service roads
Even if you do NOT charge an event fee
Even if you DO charge an event fee
IN-DEPTH EXPLANATION

BASIC THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW
Commerical use: any use or activity where a participation fee is charged OR where the primary purpose is the sale of goods or services.
Noncommercial use: any use or activity that does not involve a commercial use as defined above.
Group Use: an activity conducted on National Forest System lands that involves a group of 75 or more people, either as participants or spectators.
Guiding: providing services or assistance for pecuniary remuneration or other gain to individuals or groups on National Forest System lands.
Recreation event: a recreational activity conducted on National Forest System lands for which an entry or participation fee is charged, such as animal, vehicle or boat races; dog trials; fishing contents; rodeos; adventure games; and fairsl.
WHEN DOES MY CLUB ACTIVITY OR EVENT NEED A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

Under this new rule your club is required to obtain a special use permit if:
You use roads, campgrounds, or other lands in your National Forest;
AND

You have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event, even if you do NOT charge a fee.
Note: This includes passengers and children. For example if you have 25 vehicles attending a club ride using roads in your National Forest and those 25 vehicles have 75 people when you count the drivers and all their passengers, then you have “more than 75 people”.
OR

You have less than 75 people if you charge a fee (engage in a recreation event).
You are not required to obtain a permit if you have less than 75 people and you do NOT charge a fee.

HOW DO I APPLY FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?
You must apply to the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor having authority over the area you will be using.
You must provide your club name, address, and the name and address of the club contact handling the application.
If you have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event and you do NOT charge a fee you are engaging in a NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE.

For Noncommerical Group Use you must do the two items listed above AND
Describe your activity or event
Indicate the location of the event (which roads, areas, or other places within the Forest)
Indicate the number of participants and spectators expected at your event
Include the date, and starting time and ending time of your event
The name of the person in your club who will sign a special use authorization (that person must be 21 years old or older)
If you are charging a fee, regardless of the number of people attending, you are engaging in a RECREATION EVENT.

For Recreation Events you must do the first two items listed above AND
Provide a certificate in good standing if your club is incorporated (if specificially requested by the Forest Service)
Provide eveidence that your club has the financial capability to conduct and end the event
Describe the event, including maps, so the Forest Service can determine the feasibility of the activity, any benefits to be provided to the public, the safety of the event, the lands used, and compliance with laws, regulations, and other orders
Provide any other additional information requested by you in writing from the Forest Service
HOW DO I RECEIVE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE: If your event is categorized as a noncommercial group use your application for a permit is approved unless you receive a denial within 48 hours of applying for the permit.

A noncommercial group use application must be approved if:
Authorization is not prohibited by Forest Service order or by Federal, State, or local law.
Authorization is consistent with the Forest Plan
The event does not materially impact the resources of the forest
The event will not delay or prohibit use of the area by the Forest Service or other existing uses
The event does not violate State and local public health laws such as sanitation, availability of drinking water, etc.
The event will not post a substantial danger to public safety
The event does not include military training exercises by private individuals or entities; and
A person 21 years old or older has signed, or will sign, the authorization within 60 days of receipt
RECREATION EVENT: If your event is categorized as a recreation event your application permit must be specifically approved or denied by the Forest Service and only becomes effective if signed by both the Forest Service and your club representative within 60 days of receipt.
 
#83 · (Edited)
I pulled this from the United Four Wheel Drive web page. This may or may not help but here it is:



U.S. FOREST SERVICE SPECIAL USE PERMIT RULE

Effective August 12, 2004, your club or organization may be required to obtain a special use permit if you have 75 people traveling Forest Service roads or if you have less than 75 people and charge a fee for your event.

OVERVIEW

WHAT WAS THE RULE BEFORE?

Prior to August 12, 2004 your club could hold a trail ride by using roads in your National Forest without having to obtain a special use permit, even if you charged a fee for your event, if your event was limited to the use of roads and you didn’t use any other forest lands such as campgrounds or other areas for “staging”.

WHAT IS THE RULE NOW?

As of August 12, 2004 your club will be REQUIRED to obtain a special use permit (SUP) if you have more than 75 PEOPLE in attendance at your event (either as spectators or as participants):

Even if you limit the use of the forest to Forest Service roads
Even if you do NOT charge an event fee
Even if you DO charge an event fee
IN-DEPTH EXPLANATION

BASIC THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW
Commerical use: any use or activity where a participation fee is charged OR where the primary purpose is the sale of goods or services.
Noncommercial use: any use or activity that does not involve a commercial use as defined above.
Group Use: an activity conducted on National Forest System lands that involves a group of 75 or more people, either as participants or spectators.
Guiding: providing services or assistance for pecuniary remuneration or other gain to individuals or groups on National Forest System lands.
Recreation event: a recreational activity conducted on National Forest System lands for which an entry or participation fee is charged, such as animal, vehicle or boat races; dog trials; fishing contents; rodeos; adventure games; and fairsl.
WHEN DOES MY CLUB ACTIVITY OR EVENT NEED A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

Under this new rule your club is required to obtain a special use permit if:
You use roads, campgrounds, or other lands in your National Forest;
AND

You have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event, even if you do NOT charge a fee.
Note: This includes passengers and children. For example if you have 25 vehicles attending a club ride using roads in your National Forest and those 25 vehicles have 75 people when you count the drivers and all their passengers, then you have “more than 75 people”.
OR

You have less than 75 people if you charge a fee (engage in a recreation event).
You are not required to obtain a permit if you have less than 75 people and you do NOT charge a fee
HOW DO I APPLY FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?
You must apply to the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor having authority over the area you will be using.
You must provide your club name, address, and the name and address of the club contact handling the application.
If you have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event and you do NOT charge a fee you are engaging in a NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE.

For Noncommerical Group Use you must do the two items listed above AND
Describe your activity or event
Indicate the location of the event (which roads, areas, or other places within the Forest)
Indicate the number of participants and spectators expected at your event
Include the date, and starting time and ending time of your event
The name of the person in your club who will sign a special use authorization (that person must be 21 years old or older)
If you are charging a fee, regardless of the number of people attending, you are engaging in a RECREATION EVENT.

For Recreation Events you must do the first two items listed above AND
Provide a certificate in good standing if your club is incorporated (if specificially requested by the Forest Service)
Provide eveidence that your club has the financial capability to conduct and end the event
Describe the event, including maps, so the Forest Service can determine the feasibility of the activity, any benefits to be provided to the public, the safety of the event, the lands used, and compliance with laws, regulations, and other orders
Provide any other additional information requested by you in writing from the Forest Service
HOW DO I RECEIVE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE: If your event is categorized as a noncommercial group use your application for a permit is approved unless you receive a denial within 48 hours of applying for the permit.

A noncommercial group use application must be approved if:
Authorization is not prohibited by Forest Service order or by Federal, State, or local law.
Authorization is consistent with the Forest Plan
The event does not materially impact the resources of the forest
The event will not delay or prohibit use of the area by the Forest Service or other existing uses
The event does not violate State and local public health laws such as sanitation, availability of drinking water, etc.
The event will not post a substantial danger to public safety
The event does not include military training exercises by private individuals or entities; and
A person 21 years old or older has signed, or will sign, the authorization within 60 days of receipt
RECREATION EVENT: If your event is categorized as a recreation event your application permit must be specifically approved or denied by the Forest Service and only becomes effective if signed by both the Forest Service and your club representative within 60 days of receipt.


That pretty much spells it out.. Thanks for the post :thumb:

Permit needed if over 75 people, including drivers/riders

NO permit needed if the trail ride is 74 people or less, as long as you're not profiting off federal land. Makes complete sense.
 
#85 ·
Thank you District Ranger......
We all appreciate you coming on and informing us as the requirement spelled out. Incidentally, those are most likely contributed to the site by our own Carla Boucher, Legislative Advocate for UFWDA.
One more thing, Could you point us in the direction of the .PDFfile for the application. We will include it in our Land Use FAQ's section
Thanks again
jim-kb8ymf
 
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