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Ever wonder how much money each chevy volt produced so far has cost taxpayers?

15K views 261 replies 33 participants last post by  mschaffer66 
#1 ·
:blah::blah:Tax incentives to force a car through government motors that people don't even want to buy... :blah::blah:


http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192

Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle

By Tom Gantert | Dec. 21, 2011 Twitter Follow Tom Gantert on Twitter

Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned by the federal government.

The Volt subsidies flow through multiple companies involed in production. The analysis includes adding up the amount of government subsidies via tax credits and direct funding for not only General Motors, but other companies supplying parts for the vehicle. For example, the Department of Energy awarded a $105.9 million grant to the GM Brownstown plant that assembles the batteries. The company was also awarded approximately $106 million for its Hamtramck assembly plant in state credits to retain jobs. The company that supplies the Volt’s batteries, Compact Power, was awarded up to $100 million in refundable battery credits (combination tax breaks and cash subsidies). These are among many of the subsidies and tax credits for the vehicle.

It’s unlikely that all the companies involved in Volt production will ever receive all the $3 billion in incentives, Hohman said, because many of them are linked to meeting various employment and other milestones. But the analysis looks at the total value that has been offered to the Volt in different aspects of production – from the assembly line to the dealerships to the battery manufacturers. Some tax credits and subsidies are offered for periods up to 20 years, though most have a much shorter time frame.

GM has estimated they’ve sold 6,000 Volts so far. That would mean each of the 6,000 Volts sold would be subsidized between $50,000 and $250,000, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized.

If battery manufacturers awarded incentives to produce batteries the Volt may use are included in the analysis, the potential government subsidy per Volt increases to $256,824. For example, A123 Systems has received extensive state and federal support, and bid to be a supplier to the Volt, but the deal instead went to Compact Power. The $256,824 figure includes adding up the subsidies to both companies.

The $3 billion total subsidy figure includes $690.4 million offered by the state of Michigan and $2.3 billion in federal money. That’s enough to purchase 75,222 Volts with a sticker price of $39,828.

Additional state and local support provided to Volt suppliers was not included in the analysis, Hohman said, and could increase the level of government aid. For instance, the Volt is being assembled at the Poletown plant in Detroit/Hamtramck, which was built on land acquired by General Motors through eminent domain.

“It just goes to show there are certain folks that will spend anything to get their vision of what people should do,” said State Representative Tom McMillin, R-Rochester Hills. “It’s a glaring example of the failure of central planning trying to force citizens to purchase something they may not want. … They should let the free market make those decisions.”

“This might be the most government-supported car since the Trabant,” said Hohman, referring to the car produced by the former Communist state of East Germany.

According to GM CEO Dan Akerson, the average Volt owner makes $170,000 per year.
 
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#2 ·
thats a pretty flawed statistic. Do you think every government funded dollar went towards the volt?

Do you have any idea how much design, developement and testing costs on any new product line, regardless if is the Volt or any other hybrid? The things learned from the Volt are used across numerous product lines, and witll continue to be used on GM product lines in the future.
 
#4 ·
Hmm... I disagree all though I do not have your experience. I think the lessons leanred from the ZR1 will be used across numerous product lines at a much greater rate then the Volt . . once again I am not an engineer but just an outsider so you're proably right but thats what I precieve.

What we have learned from the Volt is that people don't want it.
 
#97 ·
No, you stated that there was more useful technology in the ZR1 than in the Volt.

Perfect proof you need to watch quietly from the sidelines. :thumb:
Yeah, performance cars and the limits that they are pushed to is proabably going to give you guys more to work with then the overpiced grocery getter with a crap battery but hey once again I'm not in the industry. Since you've offered nothing to the conversation besides contridicting what I've said leads me to wondering how much you actually have to add with your experience. So far nothing.
 
#151 ·
Yeah, performance cars and the limits that they are pushed to is proabably going to give you guys more to work with then the overpiced grocery getter with a crap battery but hey once again I'm not in the industry. Since you've offered nothing to the conversation besides contridicting what I've said leads me to wondering how much you actually have to add with your experience. So far nothing.
Hi Drew, Jesus loves you, but everybody else thinks you're an asshole.

I offered up reasons in the very beginning, however, just like every other topic you start, you're conveniently blinded by your own arrogance - especially when the general opinion of others do not match your own.

I'd say to just quit now, before you make yourself look even more ignorant, but we both know you'll beat this horse long after it's dead.
 
#13 ·
Another problem with the whole American drilling, pipeline, and processing thing is no one ever wants that in their back yard. So where do we do all of this at?

Do you want to look out your back window at a refinery? Or drive by an oil rig on Lake St. Clair? Or scoop oil sludge off your beach when some retard has an oopsie because no one has been doing their job making sure everything was up to snuff on that oil rig?

I'm far from a green person. But things need to be done responsibly and lately we have shown that does't seem to happen.
 
#20 ·
Oh, you mean the accident that happened outside of our country, under other countries laws, working on a well that we demand they have running sooner and for less money?

The one that wouldn't have happened if it had been an American company working on American land?
 
#24 ·
Not that it makes this okay, but lets not pretend corporate welfare is limited to the auto industry.

In the realm of government spending waste, development of new some automotive technologies should hardly make the list. The gasoline powered diesel engine sounds cool.


Here's some other stuff your tax dollars went to that should make you wonder: http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/6946d43b-bccf-4579-990e-15a763532b40.html
 
#33 ·
They're banking on the idea that the technology will continue to develop and soon become the standard, what is the average consumers vehicle. New technology usually isn't viewed as practical or affordable.

Example: I've owned a VCR, but not when they were first introduced and cost over $1000 (mostly because I wasn't alive then).
 
#38 ·
Beyond that, how is it different from just about anything else they do. Its simply raising stories because somebody disagrees with the govt (ooo, big shock), so writes an article. And then people agree with it, because it supports what they want to believe in. Basic human psychology, that we will much easier believe a story is true if it supports our position, and will be much more skeptical if it doesn't.

How is it different than building some bridge or farm subsidies or anything else?
 
#42 ·
"Business is war" - popular Japanese quote attributed to any number of Japanese business leaders.

I support - in concept, but not the actual execution - the government "bailout" of GM & Chrysler.

I oppose the fact that Obie did it to prevent bankruptcy of GM/Chrysler to protect UAW contracts and interests to pay back that key group of blindly obidient democrats supporters who continue to support whoever the democrats trot out, even if they drive CAFE, NAFTA, OSHA, oil drilling moratoriums, etc... that are not in their best interests. If you think I'm off-base, look at what Obie directed be done to the salaried retirees of Delphi and the Executive Order boning the non-subordinated GM bondholders, who were not (first group) and typically were not (second group) UAW members.

I'd rather see my tax $ squandered to advance technology (for U.S. companies) any day than see it used to fund the National Endowment for the Arts, PBS, NPR, virtually all foreign aid, placing our troops on the DMZ in Korea, continuing to prop up and fund NATO to protect Europeans from other Europeans and Central Asians, just to name a few.

Back in the 60s and part of the 70s, U.S. businesses got a HUGE indirect government subsidy in the form of the space program. We moved ahead at a rate unequalled before or since. Without the mega-$ spent on landing on the moon, I doubt that we would have this medium available to us right now - at the current costs.

Japan, China, Korea, Germany - all support their "home team" businesses - and it's time we started doing more of the same.

Oh, and I suspect that if the Koreans and Japanese were carrying the full weight of their own security and defense, there'd less money available to help their businesses conduct R&D...
 
#43 ·
And btw, I'd buy a Volt if they were the same $ as my Malibu.

And for the record, I'm a former GM Components Group (Allison Gas Turbine, now Rolls-Royce) salaried employee and screwed-over GM unsubordinated bond holder.
 
#48 ·
To clarify what I said, or some may say change my tune, I support the governement subsidies for a domestic company to develop new technologies. I do not support them only doing it for the green movement. Back to the Keystone pipeline, I would like to see some money dumped into something like that versus the Solyndra debacle.

I think the CAFE standards are too tight. Let a truck be a truck.
I think our emission restrictions in general are too tight. It's stupid that we can put a Duramax into a 3/4 ton truck but not into a 3/4 ton Suburban because it's a "passenger vehicle" or "station wagon" and therefore the emissions must be tighter.
I think people are naive about how "clean" electric cars are. What does the mining do to the environment? How long will a battery last and what are the implications of recycling or disposing of it? Do you really think the electricity comes out of the wall for free and it wasn't created by a fossil fuel?

To me, green alternative products should evolve as the market demands, not what sounds good for an election. By the way, is it true that there is a recall on all Volts? Maybe rumor, I don't know????
 
#53 ·
LOL @ the oil industry experts in this thread. Faggar, you know nothing. If you saw the before and after pictures of a drilling location you would still run your huge flap since its what you do best. I just spent 2 weeks doing xrays and weld inspections on a 54,000 barrel oil tank. if it leaks due to shoddy workmanship my company is fined 250K. the standards and safeguards in place are keeping a lot of accidents from happening, the bp spill was a terrible accident. When you look at the amount of rigs in use versus the amount of accidents like that, its a miracle they are so few and far between. As for the ecological damage, there has been much less than predicted. Take wild fowl numbers for example. there was a predicted drop in waterbird numbers due to marsh damage in their breeding grounds. there are now record numbers of waterbirds. did the oil make them multiply?

Oil makes everything you buy. period. without oil we would still be subsistance farming with a early industrial technology base. there are other hydrocarbons out there besides crude oil. crude is the easiest and the cheapest. If you like your way of life but hate big oil you are a fucking hypocrite.
 
#55 ·
As an outdoorsman, I agree what protecting our environment is vital.

That is best done through sound rulemaking that is based on proven science - not pseudo-science, junk science, or emotional appeals. After years in the nuke business, I know what sound rulemaking looks like (ask me why Three Mile Island was a success) and what crap looks like (CAFE, Cap & Trade, etc...).

We need rulemaking processes that allows impartial, data-driven, and fact-based scientists to develop the basis for risk-based rules - that are then accepted (in total) or rejected (in total) by politicians, keeping the uneducated politicians out of the content.

However, look into the BP spill. While a lot of oil was released and a mess was made, the true scope and scale of the mess was in reality a lot smaller than the way it was played out in the media. A combination of an Obie administration that both "didn't want to let a crisis go to waste" and wanted to differentiate themselves in the gulf region after Katrina blended with a media looking for something (anything?) sensational that would allow them to become part of the story and win some awards. Compare it to the similar-sized leak in Mexican gulf waters that leaked for years...

We can exploit our own resources safely and cleanly - and should. We also need to be aggressively (like "race for the moon" aggressively) pursuing energy independence, in a way that stimulates the economy and creates long-term, sustainable jobs.
 
#56 ·
The democrats are doing everything they can to keep us from using the natural resources we have in this country. they are more concerned about saving wolves and keeping drilling rigs off their vacation homes beaches than they are about getting afordable energy to the american people. not to mention the jobs these resources would create.
 
#58 ·
To an extent, I am glad we are limiting ourselves from using our resources. As other countries deplete their resources we will always have ours to turn to. I think it's a good strategy to buy resources from other countries as long as they are reasonably priced.
 
#90 ·
Electric drive will work when it becomes cheaper than burning hydrocarbons. people bitch about 3$ per gallon, but thats actually pretty cheap.
 
#112 ·
Same with cell phones, laptops, cordless tools, etc and though their batteries are tiny in comparison, the volumes of laptops and cell phones is massive compared to the cars, I highly doubt anyone on her cares enough to not have any of those things.

Which again is people will happily bitch and make a case why things they don't like suck but turn a blind eye when its something they like.
 
#104 ·
Sorry got busy at work first let me clarify, I think GM has done a lot of good in the production of the Volt and what we can learn from the technology will hopefully benefit other models in the future. More people came in to our store and inquired about the volt before production now people stop see the price and run. AS FAR AS GM GOES ABOUT FORCING US DEALERS TO DO STUFF TO OUR DEALERSHIPS THEY ARE, WE HAVE TO DO A REMODEL THEY ARE FORCING US TO AND OUR STORE IS NOT THAT OLD AND IN DAMN NICE CONDITION BUT BECAUSE THEY WANT US TO BE COOKIE CUTTER STORES LIKE WAL MART WE ARE NOW FORCED TO DO A REMODEL THAT WILL COST US ALMOST 1 MILLION AND LET ME TELL YOU BUSINESS IS NOT THAT GOOD.
 
#106 ·
When you compare most domestic dealerships to foreign automakers that have been in this country about half the time, most need a major overhaul.

No one wants to buy $30,000+ vehicles from grubby looking dealerships.

BTW, that money costing you to remodel is mostly coming from GM.
 
#105 ·
Let me expand.

Plug-in Electric Vehicles (PEVs) aren't the right solution for everybody. But then, neither are 1-ton pickups or Harleys - but there's a market for all of them. PEVs - especially for commuters. The architecture of the Volt (i.e. on-board charging capability) is what makes it more practical - likewise the prototype ford Escape and Dodge Rams (1/2 ton 4x4s with hemis) I've toyed with. The Nissan Leaf should aggravate everybody so much more - with no on-board generation capability, it's basically just a political statement.

The real advantage of PEVs is better utilization of the existing electrical generation infrastructure. With rare exception (building chillers and pumped storage like Ludington) electricity can't be economically saved in any volume. Overnight charging of PEVs allows power plants (which are sized for daytime peak load conditions) to be more fully used in the overnight time period. Generating more revenue from existing assets (albeit at the cost of increased fuel) means electric rates can be reduced (since generation in MI is still regulated). A good fit.

As I see it, price is the only real handicap the Volt has. When the economies of scale kick in, and the price drops it'll be a contender.

Likewise, the massive ("Saudi Arabia sized") gas deposits discovered in the OH/PA/WV/NY area have been described as a "150 year source of NG" assuming we use it for more power generation, vehicles, etc... So NG is another alternate fuel that's likely to grow.

I believe the market will diversify - gas, diesel, PEV, hybrid electric, NG...
 
#111 ·
I don't think they are all getting a cookie cutter look. What do you think sells though, every store looking completely unique and different? Ever notice how other brand name stores all have similar looks and feels? Do you think that's a coincidence?

No offense, but the marketing people do their homework and have a little more insight into what they're doing than you.
 
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