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Who is right? Gun in school

5K views 105 replies 41 participants last post by  L4CX 
#1 ·
GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) -- A West Michigan man says his rights were violated when he was confronted after wearing a holstered pistol while voting at an elementary school.

Nicholas Looman tells The Grand Rapids Press (http://bit.ly/AkrWVR ) he was stopped Tuesday in Aberdeen Elementary by a staff member after casting his ballot. He later was told to leave.

Grand Rapids Public Schools spokesman John Helmholdt said the state school code prohibits weapons on school property. He says the No. 1 issue is school safety and "common sense tells you don't bring a gun into a school."

Looman says he regularly carries a gun openly as he did Tuesday and he believes he's allowed to do so while on school property to vote.

Looman says he wants an apology and for officials to know gun laws.
 
#5 ·
how is this even a question? why the hell do you need to bring a gun into the school to vote? I am pretty sure even uncle ted would have to say this guy is pretty stupid for doing this..

as a side note I bet you never see a head line like this during a democratic primary vote
 
#6 ·
Schools are a PFZ. Law doesn't state whether or not classes have to be in session.

http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

Pistol Free Areas Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:

  • Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
  • Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
  • Sports arena or stadium
  • A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
  • Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
  • An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
  • A hospital
  • A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
  • A Casino

"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.


A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed. The following penalties may also be imposed:

  • First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
  • Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
  • Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked
Furthermore, effective March 29, 2001, per Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:

  • "Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy."

 
#13 ·
The way I read it the CPL holder is restricted and those with out their CPL aren't. If you have a CPL you are not allowed to carry openly or concealed in a pistol free zone. I have not been able to find anything regarding non CPL holders openly carrying. How ever if this guy doesn't have a CPL and he drove to the school he would have had to transport the weapon according to the laws required for non CPL holders. Kind of a pain. :confused: I am sure that there is a clarification of the law somewhere. I just can't seem to find it. Either way this guy is just a plain idiot.
 
#15 ·
I would say, if he has his CPL he did nothing against the law. Regardless, It's a dumb-ass move to open carry in a school. Add to that the fact that it was also while casting a ballot. It's not a republican or democrat thing. He's a Dumb-ass, period.

The only thing this does is cast a cloud over gun owners and those wanting to carry, concealed or otherwise. Perfect ammo for the anti-gun supporters.

What a Jack-Wagon...
 
#16 · (Edited)
MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistol-free zone. First offense is a state civil infraction. The following is a list of the premises (excluding parking lots) included in the statute:

School or school property, except a parent or legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle

Public or private day care center

Sports arena or stadium

A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of liquor by the glass is the primary source of income (does not apply to owner or employee of the business).

Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless authorized by the presiding official

An entertainment facility that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

A hospital

A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

A casino (R 432.1212, MCL 432.202)
Note, the above statute applies to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is carrying a non-concealed pistol, the statute does not apply. As noted above, the unlawful premises listed in MCL 750.234d do not apply to persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person with a valid CPL may carry a non-concealed
Sounds like Rhino is right on, if this guy had a CPL.
I had never seen that before, Thanks!
Good to know, even though I would not pull that kind of thing. I can't afford the time off and lawyer fees.
 
#19 ·
Channel 8 (hype machine) said "it is illegal per the police to carry in a school".

He is in the right as long has a has his CPL and open carries. Channel 8 also said "the case was turned over to the county prosecutor". there is no case as long as the school did not post a no weapons sign on the entry doors. If the school posted a sign, he is in the wrong.

What caught me was that at the end of that segment on the news, "the school officials were looking into having signs posted on the doors to stop future occurances". Might show they know the person carrying is in the right.
 
#20 ·
All guys like this (and the one in Breckenridge) are going to accomplish is for schools to adopt independent policies prohibiting any guns carried in any manner on school property. These guys are galvanizing the silent majority against them.

Michigan: 7.1 million Michigan adults (18 & over) without a CPL > 270,000 CPL holders
 
#26 ·
So it would appear from what I have read that most think the guy is a tool?
Correct or not I have a problem with the general attitude of don't do anything that might cause someone to be offended or upset it might come down to stricter laws. I am not going to opine as to whether or not the man is right or wrong as I do not know all of the facts.

What I would like to call up to attention is that the typical anti-gun person is vocal even to the point of being absurd, they quote there own statistics and make no provision for the truth, and yes there seem to be a lot of them they all come together to fight a common cause they see right or wrong.
The problem with those of us that shoot and carry is we sit and do just what I see here, picking apart everything thing someone does in an open forum. The next google search some anti-gun person does this crap will come up and voila more for them to fight with. SEE THEY (being gun owners) EVEN THINK IT'S WRONG. Thus we now have another battle to fight. Instead of working together and trying to educate or help we all sit back and nit pick.

Yes there are those that help and educate but they are far out weighed by those that bitch.
If we where as loud and forceful not to mention organized as the anti's e wouldn't have the problems we do.
Was he legal in carrying in a school to vote, YES
Was it wise, I will not judge as I do not know all of the facts
How many on here said it was "stupid" or "I wouldn't do that"?
Why, because you are afraid to stand up for what you believe in. Someone posted up that "you don't need to carry to vote" Why do you need to carry at all. He had his reason you have yours.
If people sit down at take whatever they are handed and never say anything out of fear for reprisal we would still be governed by Great Britain and the Queen.

So sit back complain and make judgments the same way you would hate to have done to you and watch as we lose more. What we should be doing is exactly what the anti's do, rally for his support, find any medium with which to get our opinions heard in a positive manner and quote laws, facts and statistics that can be supported. (something the anti's cannot do.)
I for one carry everywhere I go for multiple reasons but the biggest one is a right can become a privilege that can be taken away if not exercised.
And yes a CPL to an LEO is a headache that is why most do not have them.
 
#28 ·
Well stated- so what would you do in this situation?

The media are going to make you look like a whackjob, there's not too much pro 2A sentiment in reporting.

I agree with the open carry movement in principle, but what's a good way to promote it while getting positive media coverage?
 
#34 ·
I am sorry to say I am at a loss on this one. The problem we face is that the laws and courts do not always work well together.

People are being tried for firearms related crimes and sent back out with a fine and probation, and before anyone ask yes I know this to be a fact. Most of the shootings that occur either happen as a result of someone that should never own a gun in the first place or someone under age that should never own one.
They get in trouble have a grudge and get out with the intent to harm because they are aware of the fact that the weapon is illegal and they are harder to track down.

I believe mostly image hurts us. If you sat down in a restaurant and a young man clean shaven and well dressed walked in with a young lady on his arm you probably wouldn't think twice, but the problem we have is the loud obnoxious shabby looking young man with a young lady snapping her gum talking loud enough for the entire restaurant to hear about his or her rights and whatcha gonna do bout it.

I think the other big problem we face is the decidedly twist and outright wrong media. Everything is a Glock or ak-47 never mind that Glock has yet to make a revolver.
Sensationalism wins in ratings not the truth.

I have spent a fair amount of my time trying to cast a positive light on firearms and the people that use them legally for whatever purpose.
If I have a shoot coming up I always ask a non gun person, "hey_____ would you like to come along and see what it's about. " several times I have gotten the reply that but people will get hurt won't they? To which I offer to buy lunch and let them see we are not killers or heathens.
As such several people that were afraid of guns or where raised with the
belief that guns are bad now shoot and own guns of their own.

My sons girlfriend had a fear and concern when we met her of guns now she shoots, loves his .44 mag. and is looking at getting her cpl just from educating and exposure.
Take someone to the range put a target up at 25 yards and with .22 let them enjoy making small clusters I am willing to wager they will want more. The next dinner your gun club has take someone and let them see we are just like them.
But mostly be patient as they have a lifetime of fear to overcome.
 
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