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questions about the north country

3K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  Trail_Fanatic 
#1 ·
I know its not just up north but me and a group of friends were stopped

by the DNR last weekend. First time stopped and just uneducated. They

told us that what I understood was if we go off the trail they can take our

vehicles. I just got done with my jeep and just started going back out and

was unaware of the major issues of 4 wheeling laws. Maybe they were

trying to scare us but when someone tells me they can take my jeep for having fun in the mud I wanna ask questions , so whats the deal.:confused:
 
#3 ·
Not a problem, sir.

If you leave the trail, yes, they can impound your vehicle - if there's a good reason.

Of course, it's up to the officer to define 'good'.

I've been trying to learn it all for quite a while now and they sure don't make it easy!

Get more details on where you were and what you were doing that might have offended the officer?
 
#4 ·
The DNR is a fedral agency which doesn't have to obide by the same rules and regulations you may have been accustom with for local law enforcement. They can and will impound your ride if the deem there to be a need. They can and will search and seizure if they deem there to be a need... etc...

basically you are allowed to be on "trails" on state land and if you venture off those "trails" or two-tracks then thats deemed "off-roading" which is illegal. There are some rules about scramble areas but I am not overly keen on all of that. Now powerlines and gas pipe lines are also a big no-no. Check out Great Lakes 4wd Association (www.glfwda.org) lots of good info from those guys (who frequent these boards as well).
 
#6 ·
Small correction . . .

The DNR is a State Department.
The NFS is Federal.
Both have their own definition of "Forest Road" which differ from each other - makes it a bit confusing.

4wd on State land other than a designated scramble area or an ORV ROUTE (NOT trail) is illegal.

4WD on Federal 'two-tracks' is OK -maybe.
It depends on if it's a Forest Road, or considered a 'user created' track.
NOT easy to find out, either.

Spinning your wheels and throwing dirt, sand, or mud is considered "Creating an erosive condition" be the DNR and is ticket-able.

County unimproved and seasonal roads can be a lot of fun. You're always legal to travel these, BUT you might have to "create an erosive condition" to navigate them successfully.

It all gets quite complicated.

RULE #1:
STAY ON THE TRAIL!

RULE #2:
You have to know who's land it is before you know which laws have jurisdiction.

RULE #3:
Even unintentional illegal wheeling gives us all a black eye.

PM me if you want an in-depth conversation about it all.


Sincerely,
Pat Brower

VP, GLFWDA
Chair, GLFWDA Land Use Committee
VP, Two Trackers 4WD Club
Delegate, Michigan Motorized Recreation Council
Delegate, United Four Wheel Drive Associations

"quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who will guard the guards themselves?)
 
#8 ·
Aah, the old Jedi mind trick! :muddypaw:

Actually the problem is more legislative than law enforcement I think. As long as the law says state forest roads are only legal if you can drive them in 2wd (this includes the marked ORV route sytem designed for use by full-size trucks) you run a risk in every mudhole in the woods, or any time you grab the short stick. We need to work on getting the law changed so that at least our ORV route system has a little excitement available.

My $0.02
 
#9 ·
Yep!

AND it takes a LOT of money and a LOT of membership numbers to get a law changed. The Legislature has to know you're worth their time, and that equates to the number of voters who would support them.

If we want laws changed we have to join the State level 4x4 Association ( www.GLFWDA.org ) and add to their numbers and funding so they have the numbers needed.

Wheelers always want to know why things are so bleak in Michigan, yet they WON'T get involved, DON'T join the Assn, and DON'T DONATE any money to the cause.

So . . .

How can the Association possibly be expected to succeed without the budget or numbers to back them up?
 
#11 ·
I was thumbing around GLFWD and found the orv rule book. It says you cant operate your orv in a erosive matter. Does that mean that even on the ORV Routes you cant go through mud, or spin a tire?? Thats what it makes it sound to me.
 
#12 ·
you guys are confusing Forest road with ORV route. you may not use 4x4 on a forest road or other county roads to make forward motion. you may use 4x4 on a route as long as you do not create an errosive condition.
 
#13 ·
The defenition of ORV Route says a Forest Road or other road designated . . .

Steve K. at the DNR says that the word "other" allows for the use of 4wd on ORV Routes.
 
#15 ·
only if your removing mud by throwing it away from the pit, but the catch 22 is that its illegal to operate in wetlands, swamp, bogg and quagmire with an ORV that includes Hovercraft


(e) In a state game area or state park or recreation area, except on roads, trails, or areas designated for this purpose; on state owned lands under the control of the department other than game areas, state parks, or recreational areas where the operation would be in violation of rules promulgated by the department; in a forest nursery or planting area; on public lands posted or reasonably identifiable as an area of forest reproduction, and when growing stock may be damaged; in a dedicated natural area of the department; or in any area in such a manner as to create an erosive condition, or to injure, damage, or destroy trees or growing crops. However, the department may permit an owner and guests of the owner to use an ORV within the boundaries of a state forest in order to access the owner's property.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(uy...=mcl-324-81133&queryid=12968636&highlight=orv
 
#18 ·
Call the County Road Commission for the county in question and ask them to send you a set of "Certification Maps" that show ALL of the counties CURRENT Certified public roads.
 
#19 · (Edited)
OK I have read this entire board, kind of, I have spoke with the DNR, State and County police and I am thoroughly convinced I do not know squat about what is legal and what isn't. I thought I did, ignorance is bliss. That said I have a couple of questions which I understand I may or may not get the correct legal answer for.

1. What is a road vs. a trail vs. two-track?
2. Which is legal to traverse on CFR land? State/County Land? road, trail, 2-track?
3. What a hensweigh? (LOL Just kidding) Trying to keep it light.
4. What about roads that are washed out but do not have water running through them? Are they legal to drive?
5. What about windfalls? Are they legal to cross? Are they legal to clear?

P.S. I have a Plat Book, County Map, ORV trail Map and DeLorme's when I drive.
 
#20 ·
1. What is a road vs. a trail vs. two-track?
2. Which is legal to traverse on CFR land? State/County Land? road, trail, 2-track?
3. What a hensweigh? .
4. What about roads that are washed out but do not have water running through them? Are they legal to drive?
5. What about windfalls? Are they legal to cross? Are they legal to clear?

P.S. I have a Plat Book, County Map, ORV trail Map and DeLorme's when I drive.

three or four pounds
 
#21 ·
I definately need a seasonal road map. I take seasonal roads whenever I can but last night I got burned. I think it ended and a trail took over and I don't know if it was legal or not and that doesn't sit well with me. I've seen the definition on here about seasonal roads being passable by a 2 wheel drive car and I know many of them up here are not. Hell, many times the regular back roads are practically impassable without car damage. Until I get a map I'm sticking to the main roads.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I definitely need a seasonal road map. I take seasonal roads whenever I can but last night I got burned. I think it ended and a trail took over and I don't know if it was legal or not and that doesn't sit well with me. I've seen the definition on here about seasonal roads being passable by a 2 wheel drive car and I know many of them up here are not. Hell, many times the regular back roads are practically impassable without car damage. Until I get a map I'm sticking to the main roads.

Seasonal Roads are NOT covered by the same definition as a State Forest Road (the 2wd thing you quoted). They are the jurisdiction of the local CRC.


TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE :
(I'm not a real doctor, I just play one on TV)

State Forest Land:

2WD, creating an erosive condition, and wetland issues all apply

State Game and Recreation Areas:

NO ORVs ALLOWED

National Forest Land:

2WD does NOT apply
-BUT-
erosive condition and wetland issues do
You're also supposed to stay on recognized roads and trails but they don't have a map of them available to the public.

County Unimproved, Seasonal, and Poorly Maintained Roads:

2WD does NOT apply
-BUT-
erosive condition and wetland issues MIGHT
I don't think it's ever been pushed in court to find out for sure.
It might depend on the severity of the infraction too.

CFA LANDS:

I have NO clue!
There simply aren't any near me to have ever needed to learn about them.
I would THINK that, since they are administered by the DNR, that the rules would be the same as for a State Forest.

Private Property:

2WD does NOT apply
Erosive condition does NOT apply
-BUT- Wetland issues still do


Wetland issues ALWAYS do.

If anyone knows about CFA lands 'for sure', I'd like to learn!

(Dang letter sizes won't behave normally)
 
#24 ·
The issue I ran into (literally) the other night: I took a seasonal road that seemed to never end. After a couple of miles (with no outlet) there started appearing snowmobile signs. I know snowmobile trails are off limits but this has the seasonal road sign in plain view at the beginning of the road. I finally turned around because I didn't want trouble or to make things worse, as seems to be the case with illegal wheeling.

Drummond, maybe you know the road I am talking about....when you take North Conway road until it ends at Brutus road, if you cross Brutus road there is a seasonal road.

So am I supposed to be psychic as to when these become a different kind of trail and illegal?

Also, thanks Pat for all the good info! I really appreciate it.
 
#25 ·
I should have included that Snowmobile Trails are only off limits IF:

1) It's between December 1st and March 31st AND there are at LEAST 3" of snow on the ground.

I don't condone pushing the 3" requirement though. We need to befriend the snowmobilers as another form of motorized recreation. It's only for 4 months.

Note: A CRC Road designated as a sonwmobile route is PRIMARILY a County Road,but, again in the spirit of good will, if it can be avoided please do so.

2) The trail is not normally gated to wheeled use and only opened in the winter for the snowmobilers use only.
 
#28 ·
If it wasn't posted closed to wheeled vehicles, gated, or otherwise posted as off-limits, I'd have to say it was legal. It all comes down to the Certificatin Map.

. . . but I'm not an attorney.

I've seen Seasonal Roads that are also designated snowmobile routes and orv routes all at once.

In this situation, I would think it's just good maners to let the sleds have their turn at it, not law (It is a road). There are plenty of other places to ride (at least around here) and we have use of them 3 times longer than they get to use them.
 
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